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22 Hornet why is bullet seating crushing case wall

nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
edited June 2017 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
Any idea why this is happening ? 22 Hornet - 40 gr Sierra - using a Dillon 550 with RCBS dies

4 out of 50 crushed

Crushed%20Hornet_zpsxkwnixvc.jpg
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Comments

  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So have you champhered the case mouth? Are your dies for .223 bullets and you are loading .224 bullets?
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  • nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The dies are not marked either .223 or .224. How can you tell ?
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  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 10,035 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "So have you champhered the case mouth?"...........this. .223"/.224" shouldn't make any difference
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  • varianvarian Member Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i use the lee collet die to only neck size. lightly chamfer the inside case mouth. and i dont crimp. have only had one out a hundred crush so far.
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  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lyman Neck Expander M Die 22 Hornet will solve the problem. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/794181/lyman-neck-expander-m-die-22-hornet

    When seating the bullet, you must guide it into the case mouth by hand. Dont just drop the bullet on top of the case mouth and hope for the best.

    The Lyman die opens the case mouth a bit more. Works well. Do lube the inside of the case neck before using the "M" die.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well apparently it makes a difference almost 10% of the time.

    I champher all my brass. I neck size only if the firearm allows it.
    Are you full length sizing? What brass is it and how many reloads?

    So what firearm are you shooting? Are your bullets .223 or .224? .
    What is the diameter of your expander ball and the year of production stamped on your RCBS dies.

    I load 40 grain .222 bullets for my 22 Jet, .223 and .224 don't do as well. I have a .224 bullet swage, I'm considering making a .222 one.
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The hornet case is whisper thin. You really must champher and even better yet do a slight belling of the case mouth with the M die to assure the bullet starts into the case straight.
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  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,105 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I used to load and shoot tons of 22 Hornet many different fire arms of all types case wall thickness at the neck was always an issue I had to bell the case mouth and very confined area with your fingers to get bullet started straight I loved the boat tail bullets they used to make in light weight bullets 45 grain and even 40 grain have not reloaded for many years I lost all my ground hog Land I could hunt and now go another way foR turkeys Valmet model 412
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  • nyforesternyforester Member Posts: 2,575 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shooting a Ruger 77-22 Hornet. It is once shot brass from a Savage 23D I recently traded for the Ruger so I am full length resizing this time around. There is a 91 on the top of the dies so I assume it is from 1991 ? .224 bullets I am reloading. I do not know what diameter the dies are. - Hope that answers all of your questions. I probably will try the Hornady new dimension seater die. I've been told by one of the old reloaders in my camp that will solve all the problems. Champhering will work also so I might try that too.



    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Well apparently it makes a difference almost 10% of the time.

    I champher all my brass. I neck size only if the firearm allows it.
    Are you full length sizing? What brass is it and how many reloads?

    So what firearm are you shooting? Are your bullets .223 or .224? .
    What is the diameter of your expander ball and the year of production stamped on your RCBS dies.

    I load 40 grain .222 bullets for my 22 Jet, .223 and .224 don't do as well. I have a .224 bullet swage, I'm considering making a .222 one.
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  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,572 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would think that by 91 it would be a .224 die. If it was a 61 die likely .223 then loading .224 could have been the issue.
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  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-0%2B4294943554%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1%26Ntt%3D.223%2522%2Bbullets%2B&userItemsPerPage=48
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
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  • papernickerpapernicker Member Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would learn and get the M die, guide carefully and slowly when seating and make sure seating stem fits the bullet.
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  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just curious: What is the ID of the case mouth after you size it? If it's smaller than 0.224" and you are trying to load 0.224" bullets, you'll crush the cases 'most' of the time.

    As already posted, "chamfer the case mouth and 'flare' it 'slightly' to ease loading".
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  • SoreShoulderSoreShoulder Member Posts: 3,148 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
    Just curious: What is the ID of the case mouth after you size it? If it's smaller than 0.224" and you are trying to load 0.224" bullets, you'll crush the cases 'most' of the time.

    As already posted, "chamfer the case mouth and 'flare' it 'slightly' to ease loading".


    Doesn't matter, no reloading equipment is perfect. There will be slight misalignment.


    The chamfer in the case mouth and the radius at the heel of the bullet have to be greater than the misalignment and the difference in diameter.

    I always start by being very careful how I place the bullet on the case neck because you can't count on the shellholder to maintain perfect alignment with the seating punch.
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  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,860 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by SoreShoulder
    quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
    Just curious: What is the ID of the case mouth after you size it? If it's smaller than 0.224" and you are trying to load 0.224" bullets, you'll crush the cases 'most' of the time.

    As already posted, "chamfer the case mouth and 'flare' it 'slightly' to ease loading".


    Doesn't matter, no reloading equipment is perfect. There will be slight misalignment.


    The chamfer in the case mouth and the radius at the heel of the bullet have to be greater than the misalignment and the difference in diameter.

    I always start by being very careful how I place the bullet on the case neck because you can't count on the shellholder to maintain perfect alignment with the seating punch.


    That is all well and good except it is difficult to insert a .224" bullet into a .223" hole. Trying to insert a .224" bullet into a .224" hole won't work either (that is called an 'interference fit' in the world of machining and engineering). We aren't talking about 5.56 NATO brass.
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  • SoreShoulderSoreShoulder Member Posts: 3,148 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by iceracerxThat is all well and good except it is difficult to insert a .224" bullet into a .223" hole. Trying to insert a .224" bullet into a .224" hole won't work either (that is called an 'interference fit' in the world of machining and engineering). We aren't talking about 5.56 NATO brass.
    What do we have if we don't have interference though? Do you want clearance in your case necks?

    They're all "interference fit." The question is how much.

    If your dies have an expander that is made for .224 caliber bullets, you will still get less internal neck diameter than .224 because the brass will snap back. However it will be what the die maker thinks is correct for .224 bullets.

    The neck will be even smaller inside if the dies are made for .223.

    Those dies would probably be fine if the case mouths were belled with a die or some tool.
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  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The normal interference fit is in the .004-.008 range.
    The guys that run less (IE .001-.003) are using bushing dies on turned necks to control the neck tension for target usage (at those levels you run a real risk of having the bullet move due to rough handling).
    To see for yourself, simply measure a neck OD before and after seating a bullet.

    The Hornet has a well deserved reputation for being a difficult cartridge to reload, and requires you use all the "tricks" such as chamfering, mouth expansion, taper base bullets, etc.
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  • B17-P51B17-P51 Member Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I use a .243 die and just barely bump the case neck on the bottom of the expander ball. You can even leave the decap pin in if you want. Screw the die in with the ram raised till you feel the ball touch and lock it with the ring then screw the stem down maybe a quarter of a turn or less in and see what you got.
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