In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

h4350 imr4350

varianvarian Member Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭✭
Please does anyone know for sure the difference. since hodgen owns the entire powder world now why would they make two powders with almost the same name be different. why? why would you muddy the waters that much. going thru all my manuals it looks as if the H loads about 1 grain less than the imr (280 rem). most of my books dont even show H4350. does anyone know the real story.

Comments

  • navc130navc130 Member Posts: 970 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No, I don't know the whole story. But, IMR4350 (and other IMR powders) has been on the market for a LONG time. Hodgdon is a relative newcomer and evidently makes some powders that are very close to other brand name popular powders, i.e., competition.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hodgdon started as selling surplus powder, they didn't make it.

    Yes back then there were 2 4831's, 4895's and others and you would be correct that max loads were/are different.

    When BlueDot changed from Hercules manufacture to Aliant the name was the same but the powder was faster and required reduced loading.
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,317 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As I recall it, Hodgdon got started selling WWII surplus powder made by DuPont, 4895 rifle powder and 4831 20mm powder (originally sold as "4350 Data Powder" until they could get some time in a PV lab and develop loads.) When surplus inventory ran out, they contracted to have fresh powder made to the same specifications. I know they dealt with ICI Nobel in Scotland, ADI in Australia, and are now actually getting some powder from IMR Canada.

    In the meanwhile, DuPont seeing that business was good for Hodgdon, started producing canister grade IMR 4895 and then 4831. There is not a perfect match, so each has its own data, especially IMR vs H 4831.

    In the same way, Hodgdon saw the wide application of IMR 4350 and had H 4350 manufactured.

    Now Hodgdon distributes IMR powder alongside their own H series. They have flip-flopped sources and you have to read the label to see whether any of it comes from Canada, Australia, or the US.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,935 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    varian,

    I'm not sure what you're really after but there is no comparative data between the two powders. Any conversion factors are simply attempts to simply the substitution of one brand for the others which is not recommended at all because of the variables in manufacturing smokeless powders. That's why each bottle or jug comes labeled with a 'Lot #' which enables the manufacturer to track the process and ultimately know what the formulation was. You can't just state that there is a one-grain difference between loads as this is not universally true. It might be for the tested combinations in a couple of instances but it is NOT an industry-wide acceptable conversion. In fact, it can be dangerous to attempt to simply information or collected data by attempting such a simple comparison.

    Both powders need to be treated as individual elements in the reloading regimen. That's also why most reloaders admonish everyone with the phrase of: 'Start low and work up carefully looking for signs of pressure.'

    Hodgdon does not own the world of powder, just a few companies that manufacture powder and the rights to some of that manufacturing. In fact, Hodgdon doesn't make any powder at all:

    Many American shooters and reloaders will be aware that some of the current Hodgdon powders are made overseas and in fact that Bruce Hodgdon?s powder business was and is a powder distribution business, not a powder manufacturing business. So the powders sold under the Hodgdon brand name are not made by Hodgdon and never have been.

    Here, the implication is that currently, most of the 'H' powder manufacturing is done in Australia. But with the acquisition of the rights to manufacture Winchester branded powders, the U.S has retained some powder manufacturing by St. Marks in Florida.

    IMR though originated here in the U.S. in the late 19th century:

    Originally, IMR powders were built in a facility at Carney?s Point, in New Jersey across the river from the black powder operations. This plant, built in the 1880?s, was a key provider of gunpowder to the U.S. military and its Allies during World War I. As the U.S. moved out of the Depression and headed towards World War II the need for increased capacity was satisfied through the construction of additional powder plants modeled after Carney?s Point. Amazingly, these plants in total shipped up to 1 Million pounds of gunpowder per day during World War II. In total, 2-1/2 billion pounds of smokeless powder was manufactured in these plants during the War. One of the locations of the newly constructed plants was Valleyfield, in Canada. This plant continues to be the primary supplier of IMR Legendary Powders today.

    After this simplified overview, it gets real complex and intricate as to who manufactures what powders and where they come from.

    Best.
  • varianvarian Member Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    perhaps stating they own the entire powder world was a exaggeration but marketing H, IMR, and winchester is a big part of it. i was just wondering why they market h4350 and imr4350. it would seem to me they could have changed the name a little. also in their own manual they state "the burning speed of this Extreme Extruded propellant has been know to shooters for decades". i just think this creates a dangerous situation that need't happen.
  • 243winxb243winxb Member Posts: 264 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hodgdon didnt always control IMR. So H was made to compete with it.

    Did you not see Accurate 4350 . Makes 3. http://www.imrpowder.com/msds.html See who makes what for Hodgdon.
    [url] https://saami.org [/url]
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,935 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    varian,

    They WERE in competition with each other for decades with both achieving huge name recognition. And a large chunk of marketing is name recognition so changing or slightly modifying is completely out of the question.

    Just ask Coke or Pepsi...

    Best.
  • varianvarian Member Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the MSDS sheets are very enlightening. i guess i just didnt realize.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    And if you shoot for accuracy you will find that H4350 is little more user friendly and more stable than IMR4350.

    Always go by the reloading books and some sales people that do not know Jack Smit will say the IMR and H4350 is same, IMR4831 and H 4831 is same, H4895 and IMR4895.

    Hodgons has some real good reloading data on-line. (and if a powder is not listed for a caliber/bullet combo it's not because Hodgons forgot to list it.
  • Okie743Okie743 Member Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think maybe that Hodgdons nows owns IMR brand of powders and when they purchased the IMR (Dupont) line of powders not too many moons ago they kept offering the Dupont IMR powders.

    If you have any questions/concerns about Hodgdons powders call them by phone. (talk to the Horse mouth)[;)]
Sign In or Register to comment.