.

585 HE Continued.......

hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny,. if you need long range work.

lawtonthumb.jpg

lawtonhogue.jpg

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs, etc, Not really, just use one for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

guardlen.jpg
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Comments

  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
    On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
    and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
    weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
    Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
    like a compact UTG sight...

    enfieldsight.jpg

    If we have a welded up Enfield rear bridge, then we can use sight
    like on this gun a guy is doing. Has a rosewood laminate stock.
    He will have it checkered, sanded, with fancy finish.

    enbro.jpg

    Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
    a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
    stock, handles recoil great... Ed

    brian24.jpg


    More about 585 BB short case for lever guns, pistols,AR Uppers,
    Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
    One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
    Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
    to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
    that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet
    Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
    Or rolling block rifles and pistols....Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is a picture from the back of a big Lawton action that
    our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
    for long range shooting.

    lawton35-2.jpg

    Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our
    585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
    He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.


    warlord4.jpg


    In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
    By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
    Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site. Ed

    Mickyboob.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
    That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

    Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
    bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
    I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
    bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.

    2wgrs.jpg

    Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..

    biebs.jpg

    Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF

    brian24-2.jpg


    On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
    die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
    felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
    roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
    bullet or slug, shortens case life.

    So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
    of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
    amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
    with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
    work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

    mouthex.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
    a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
    This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.

    shrifle.jpg


    Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
    Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
    585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
    shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..



    Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
    the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
    AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
    Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..

    lawton35.jpg


    Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
    chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
    with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
    put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

    rossi585bb.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
    I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.

    2-8bore.jpg

    The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
    we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
    in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
    that we have, is the Magtech.

    Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
    real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
    soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

    We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
    for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.

    perfect12.jpg


    Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
    set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job.. Ed

    camo-en.jpg

    Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
    rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
    Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed

    enbackwea.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
    Kind of a neat suppressor,

    bigsuppressor.jpg


    Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.

    companion24.jpg


    Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
    break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.

    perfect12open.jpg


    Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..

    coyote2.jpg


    Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
    with a variety of bullets..Ed

    585bbloads.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.

    midland24.jpg

    Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
    for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases

    ballshot.jpg

    Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
    It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
    further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
    Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.

    585mosin.jpg

    Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.
    Nice looking wood. Ed

    coyote.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.

    585bb.jpg


    Here is another view of the great camo job on the
    585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

    camo-en2.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

    It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,

    by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

    Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

    the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.


    spooksar.jpg



    That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

    2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

    from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

    He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

    Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.


    375lethal.jpg



    Here is picture of a case a Trex owner made using our 585 brass, by putting

    a piece of 11/16 tubing ,cut a piece 2/10 of an inch long with a tube cutter chamfered

    the cut side a bit and tapped it on the case down to the belt with the brass pipe

    and fireformed it in the T Rex chamber.......Made a perfect fitting case.

    Cut our brass to 3" to fit shorter trex specs. He was out of brass

    and couldn't find more, so he invented his own. And our rim was big

    enough so his extractor still worked ok....His original Trex case base is .685"

    and our rim and belt on first case run, is .655" diameter, and base ahead

    of the belt on unfired cases .631" and the brass sleave pushed up tight to the

    belt just takes up that little difference. Ed.


    herex.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    We have heard that fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, is working

    with Bertram in making a run of the full length 12ga From Hell cases.

    Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

    Any wanting to get some, and get in on the run, contact Bertram

    at the email
    [email protected] ......





    Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......

    .375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

    Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

    Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

    muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

    these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..


    Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

    a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

    The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).



    mitch3.jpg


    Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

    The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed


    enchoate.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

    Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.

    12gavale.jpg


    Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

    for our case as it came from production line,.

    585bbstamp.jpg


    I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

    We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

    Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

    a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

    handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,


    buttnef.jpg


    Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat

    375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed


    law585bolt.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
    a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.


    Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
    published in Oct, now out for sale,

    cotw585.jpg


    We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
    The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
    shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
    guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
    testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
    shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

    Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
    A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
    pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

    I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

    When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
    held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
    the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

    So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
    below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

    Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
    reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

    After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
    bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
    perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
    bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

    These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
    bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
    Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

    OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
    bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

    All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
    for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


    boattailseat.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

    Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture


    brianbuff.jpg


    briangun.jpg


    Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

    are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

    from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

    another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

    We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

    lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

    Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

    to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

    at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed

    necking375.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

    they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

    ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

    over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..

    585blast.jpg



    Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

    Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.

    375hecases.jpg


    Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

    So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.

    testgun.jpg


    Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

    test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

    When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

    Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

    Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

    our bigger case .Ed

    416he.jpg
  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,748 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What's the expected effective range of the 416 HE Target?

    EDIT: Thanks Nono! Give me all the info you've got. I'll eat it with a spoon. Great info (something that most of us don't have to consider) on the 'angle of the rail'. Fascinating topic.

    I'd sure like to have a beer (or Coke or Ice Tea) with Ed since we're in the same state (and I wanted to touch off the 12GAFH years ago, but those days are behind me). Might be fun to run into you at a match too!

    EDIT2: A quick google search for K2oM shows that Berger didn't waste any time advertising the results! Plenty to read up on.

    As you may have suspected, when I used 'target' in the same sentience as 'effective range', I was curious about the target distance and accuracy requirements.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited November -1
    iceracerx,

    'expected effective range' is the bugaboo here. We would have to define 'effective' to be sure that we cover exactly what you want to know. This is not meant to be a dance around answer but a truthful explanation.

    Most of the large capacity cartridges Ed is discussing in the .375, .408, .416 and .458 are meant to be used in the King of 2 Miles competition. There are some Ultra Long Range matches in California, of all places [:(!] but the usual contingency consists of locals. Now that everyone is all worked up about the K2oM, the race for the next big cartridges and high BC bullet is underway.

    The obvious advantage goes to last year's winners who were able to utilize an experimental bullet supplied by Berger because Bryan Litz was on that team. No other individual or team had access to that secret bullet. The rest of us had to make due with what was commercially available, which is not bad, but it sure wasn't what Berger came up with!

    The numbers I'm working with indicate that 2,500 yards is just about the end of the line for supersonic velocities. However, I'm sure that some will struggle through the transonic and subsonic regions just to prove a point. This amounts to 224 FEET of drop with a 300 yard zero and 23 FEET of drift in a mathematical 10 mph breeze. This requires a large amount of angle in the rail then some very specialized (expensive) rings by Ivey. Add in scopes with the most adjustments available also.

    The limiters in this game are Horsepower, Barrel Length and Quality of glass. You don't worry about barrel life or the cost of the best optics because without both you are simply an also-ran. Horsepower is a given. There is no choice here, somewhere around 160 to 200+ grains per case will get you going.

    Anyway, that's more than you asked but I got carried away...[:I]

    Best.

    40-thickbox_default.jpg
  • iceracerxiceracerx Member Posts: 8,748 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nononsense

    40-thickbox_default.jpg


    Holy Bizots Batman! That's a thing of beauty. I wish I'd designed it, and I would have if asked!!! If you ever need an old CAD jockey/Design Eng just ask. WOW

    Was this mount done by a Mr. Ivy?
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited November -1
    iceracerx,

    Yes, Ivey Shooting. He makes 4 versions based on scope ring diameter ranging from $695.00 to $745.00/set.

    http://iveyshooting.com/index.php?id_category=12&controller=category

    Best.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I told them make 416 about 525 gr G7 of .600

    and Ill get you case to start it at 3800 or so,

    be transonic past 4000yds, in a non bmg

    action, in 50 lb limit, Hence the 416 HSM


    Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
    necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed

    beforehydroafter.jpg


    Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
    with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
    Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
    Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
    3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
    1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

    416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
    470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
    Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
    to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
    A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.

    416hsm.jpg

    Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
    next to bmg case we make it from and as we
    improve wildcatting process next few weeks
    some specs may make small changes, now from
    base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..


    hsmbmg.jpg


    Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
    He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
    We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
    Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
    PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

    Here are final specs for 416 HE.
    Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
    length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,296 ******
    edited November -1
    Ed,

    Have any of you made a decision on the throat configuration yet? I would 'assume'[;)] bore rider but I seem to read that some are still hung up on the jam rather than jump theory. I would guess that jam would be detrimental to whichever lathe turned bullets you choose to shoot.

    Thanks!
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is working out for us, top speed to have bore rider

    section way out in the bore, a centered fit in

    the lands, with less bullet down in powder space.

    Some bullets have tapered area behind rider section leading into

    the taper of the throat with minimum to no jump.

    Lot of guys say that is most accurate. CEBs are supposed to

    be shotthat way, but they are not out with longer freebore

    that I like for speed. Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
    410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
    They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
    our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
    RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
    410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

    585mosin2.jpg

    Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
    BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
    enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
    in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
    work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
    We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
    And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

    hsmsect.jpg

    Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
    Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
    the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
    Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
    cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

    416heexp.jpg


    Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
    Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
    375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
    It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

    Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
    weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
    Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
    Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
    last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
    They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....


    The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

    has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

    on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..

    416heexp.jpg


    More info out now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
    Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case
    proportions, too sharp of shoulders, too fast of powders...........
    and debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
    My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

    416inout.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
    made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed

    416heprint.jpg


    Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..

    pat1.jpg


    Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,

    416hsmpic.jpg



    A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

    lawton375.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

    https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


    Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...

    375hehotrod.jpg


    Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

    bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

    and is checking on better powder, Ed..



    https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecision/videos/298031133934093/?fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

    & slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

    in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

    something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

    get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

    our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

    which gives 50% more eneregy...


    585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....




    Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

    375hehotrod2.jpg


    Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

    hsmbarrett.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

    our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed

    416process.jpg


    We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

    between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

    375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

    having to do extreme rebating of the rim.


    Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

    that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

    There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

    1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

    This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

    them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

    hsmcnc.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
    Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

    We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
    CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

    Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
    did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
    side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

    I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
    no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

    And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
    more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
    hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

    And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
    15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


    thickthin.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
    like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

    And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
    heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
    shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
    The dotted line is what it should be............

    casedrawing.jpg

    Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
    stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
    don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
    it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

    Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
    and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added

    allnyati.jpg

    In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
    Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
    not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

    Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
    and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
    as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
    416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
    'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
    could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

    Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
    size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

    Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
    416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

    Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
    stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
    speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

    . Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
    contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
    be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

    Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
    same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
    side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
    just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .

    brandxthick.jpg


    Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
    using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

    choate416he.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
    The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
    These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....

    brandv.jpg

    Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
    as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
    Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

    Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
    Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
    And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
    clear up to 550 gr...

    So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
    And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

    Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


    mrcphhsm.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

    another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

    it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

    We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

    First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too

    thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..

    goodone.jpg

    Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

    at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.

    Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

    he4times.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    About 416 cal bullets............

    The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
    and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......

    Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
    long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
    Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
    like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
    while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

    The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
    twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

    Paul Philips was third with a 416...

    GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
    in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

    Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
    to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

    It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

    and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

    without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

    It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

    1.6" diameter and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

    BMG actions.... ED


    intermediates.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

    with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

    base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..


    interboltp.jpg


    Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

    Good pictures............www.585he.cz

    We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

    Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

    Action worked fine.. Ed.
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is video of early water barrel test of the

    12ga From Hell, from years ago.




    Here is picture from that video..

    Shot%203.jpg



    Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed

    intertargetp.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

    with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

    Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

    for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

    Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

    A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


    Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

    and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed



    hsmholders.jpg



    workinghsm.jpg
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

    Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

    He was an esteemed member of the

    American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

    Being its president in 1992..He liked

    working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

    .Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

    Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down

    to 50cal, a true wildcatter....Ed
  • hubel458hubel458 Member Posts: 427 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    .....


    It is possible rig up holders for many types setups.,

    About shellholder supply for big cases,

    RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases

    that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases...

    Here are various sizes.......

    16ga-- .810" rim,........ 20ga-- .760" rim,....

    24ga-- .725" rim,....... 28ga .680" rim....

    Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders...


    We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed

    surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

    and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

    It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

    size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


    It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,

    long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



    ....
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