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Questions AFTER the range
dcloco
Member Posts: 2,967
223, bull barrel, single shot, & 1:9 twist rate.
At 100 yards, 69 gr Sierra HPBT's shot 1/4" high & 5/8" right. (same loads for both groups - powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 200 yards, 1" high & 3" right (using a mildot scope, moved up one dot).
My concern is the windage right, seems like a lot.
Also shot Hornady 53 gr Match HP. (same loads for both groups- powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 100 yards, elevation is on, right 3/8".
At 200 yards, elevation is 1/4" low, dead center left/right.
I shot 5 shot groups for each, two times.
Am I seeing a preference of what bullet the rifle likes to shoot, or is there something else that I am missing? Crooked scope? Loose nut behind the stock?
Thoughts? Questions? Suggestions?
At 100 yards, 69 gr Sierra HPBT's shot 1/4" high & 5/8" right. (same loads for both groups - powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 200 yards, 1" high & 3" right (using a mildot scope, moved up one dot).
My concern is the windage right, seems like a lot.
Also shot Hornady 53 gr Match HP. (same loads for both groups- powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 100 yards, elevation is on, right 3/8".
At 200 yards, elevation is 1/4" low, dead center left/right.
I shot 5 shot groups for each, two times.
Am I seeing a preference of what bullet the rifle likes to shoot, or is there something else that I am missing? Crooked scope? Loose nut behind the stock?
Thoughts? Questions? Suggestions?
Comments
223, bull barrel, single shot, & 1:9 twist rate.
At 100 yards, 69 gr Sierra HPBT's shot 1/4" high & 5/8" right. (same loads for both groups - powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 200 yards, 1" high & 3" right (using a mildot scope, moved up one dot).
My concern is the windage right, seems like a lot.
Also shot Hornady 53 gr Match HP. (same loads for both groups- powder, bullets, cases, primers, etc - everything that I can make "the same")
At 100 yards, elevation is on, right 3/8".
At 200 yards, elevation is 1/4" low, dead center left/right.
I shot 5 shot groups for each, two times.
Am I seeing a preference of what bullet the rifle likes to shoot, or is there something else that I am missing? Crooked scope? Loose nut behind the stock?
Thoughts? Questions? Suggestions?
Hi DCLOCO,
Trying to decypher it all.
The drift seems about correct for wind. As the bullet slows down the wind has a longer time to move it. 3/8" at 100 spreading out to 3" at 200 sounds like a wind drift issue. Check your load manual for the drift tables. They may explain a lot.
It also seems that your scope is set to compensate for the 53 grain bullet perhaps?
What were the conditions you were shooting in?
Questions, lots of questions, mostly for my own curiosity and a few to see if this can be resolved.
Type and make of rifle?
Length of barrel?
Complete load information for both?
OAL of both loads?
Shape of the holes in the target?
Have you checked the twist rate accurately yourself?
Describe the rest and bag that you are using.
Describe the bench being used.
How is the rifle positioned on the rest? The same exactly every time?
Was the rifle level?
Did you check cant?
Did you check the scope itself for being level or canted in the mounts?
Did you check the level of the mounts?
Single shot - is the scope mounted on the barrel or the receiver?
"Am I seeing a preference of what bullet the rifle likes to shoot(maybe), or is there something else that I am missing? Crooked scope? Loose nut behind the stock?" Actually maybe to all of these.
It's not unusual to see a rifle or pistol show a preference for a particular bullet or load, especially when switching between two such dissimilar bullets.
The 52 and 53 gr. 22 caliber Match bullets have almost always performed well in my rifles chambered for the .222 and .223 cartridges whether the twist was 1:14" or 1:8". The 69 gr. has seemingly been a bit more picky. But these are my observations in my rifles with my loads.
Best.
My Savage does the same thing between different bullets at times. It will put a group to the right with one bullet and it moves to the left with another. Try as I might to make sure the parallax is dead on and I come down behind the scope the same each time,it just does that. I have other rifles that do that too with various loads. Zero for one load and another load goes left or right of it. Although not as extreme as how you describe the 69 gr. moving from 100 yd to 200 yds. Anyhow, For some reason my Savage has never liked 69 gr. Sierras as much as it has liked 60 gr. Sierra hp's and 55-60 gr. Hornady V-Max's
My big question is: "What was the wind that day, and from what angle?" So: "Were the shot placements with the 69 gr. bullets at 200 yds zero or windage?" You may be doing a great job of coming down behind the scope the same every time, but with a parallax error you could be getting the variations you describe by coming down "off" center.
nononsense, dcloco has the single shot version of the Savage 12FV with a 1-9" twist. I don't have it handy but i think it's a 26" barrel. and of course the scope mounts to the top of the action. He'll have to give you the load info and ATM conditions for the day.
That's better than I expected. For some reason I was wondering if he had a break action single shot of some sorts... The barrel is 26", I just checked. However, I would still check the twist rate as their barrels have shown some variation in the past, not much just a bit. A bit can make a difference when you are running at the top end of the bullet length for twist.
This can be the barrel, the rifle as a whole sitting on the bench, scope, scope mounting and a combination of all of these plus a few more little idiosyncrasies thrown in for fun.
dcloco, you might want to check neck tension on the one set of dies also.
Best.
Were they satisfactory?
If so, group placement on the target is handled by those little knobs in the middle of the scope.
Your 100-200 yard 69 grain windage shift was probably due to a stressed position while shooting or parallax error in the scope.
At least mine is.
Length of barrel? 26"
Complete load information for both? 25.5 gr of Accurate 2230C, 1.750 case length, CCI SR primer, seated 0.007" off the lands for the Horn 53. I will look up the 69 gr load (same type of powder, primer, etc).
OAL of both loads? I am using a Stoney Point gauge - both loads are 0.007" off of the lands.
Shape of the holes in the target? Perfectly round
Have you checked the twist rate accurately yourself? No, but I will.
Describe the rest and bag that you are using. 5 shotgun shot bags in front (two across, two lengthwise, one across - 90 degrees to stock), one in the rear.
Describe the bench being used. Heavy wood (2x6) I weigh 260, I don't think the bench is moving.
How is the rifle positioned on the rest? Front bag just ahead of the recoil lug. Rear under the butt, 3" from the recoil pad.
The same exactly every time? As close as I can, some recoil, but not much.
Was the rifle level? Very close.
Did you check cant? On the scope?
Did you check the scope itself for being level or canted in the mounts? Will double check again.
Did you check the level of the mounts? No
Single shot - is the scope mounted on the barrel or the receiver? Receiver
"Am I seeing a preference of what bullet the rifle likes to shoot(maybe), or is there something else that I am missing? Crooked scope? Loose nut behind the stock?" Actually maybe to all of these.
It's not unusual to see a rifle or pistol show a preference for a particular bullet or load, especially when switching between two such dissimilar bullets.
The 52 and 53 gr. 22 caliber Match bullets have almost always performed well in my rifles chambered for the .222 and .223 cartridges whether the twist was 1:14" or 1:8". The 69 gr. has seemingly been a bit more picky. But these are my observations in my rifles with my loads.
Interesting. Mine likes the fouling shots as well.
I checked loads through the chrono tonight as well. I show signs of pressure - cupped primers & primers pushed out of the pockets 0.002 to 0.003". NO other signs of pressure. Velocity is 200 fps over what Hodgdon's #26 manual indicates. Amount of powder is 0.5 grains under their recipe.
The other rifle that I shot tonight, 17 Remington, the velocity is 250 fps slower than the book.
On the 17 Rem, I recorded all of the velocities, entered them in a spreadsheet, calculated STD Deviation, average velocity, etc. These loads started near the bottom of recommended, increased 0.1 grain per round, with a total of 10 rounds. I was looking for the best primer for specific power. Best standard deviation was 37 (remember...I increased powder 0.1 gr per round). Had NO signs of pressure with CCI 450 (magnum) primers. Saw some cupping with two of the other four primers, all with the same charges.
From what I learned tonight, I believe it is nearly useless to reload without a chronograph and a spreadsheet. I have used it before, but did not build spreadsheets to go with. Gives a little time to look at performance on targets, compared with statistical analysis. UGH!