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Going past max load
ChetStafford
Member Posts: 2,794
I am loading a 300 wby using Weatherby cases fed 215 primers 84.5 gr. of Rl22 and barnes 180 gr. xlc bullets this is the max load that barnes shows in their manual but my groups are getting smaller the hotter the load gets I am wating to try 85 gr. and 85.5 gr. but dont really know how I should work up to it
Any advice will be appreciated and listened to
thanks
chet
Any advice will be appreciated and listened to
thanks
chet
Comments
Dave
Generally speaking the only time I exceed manuals is when I'm loading an old round in new good brass in a modern or very well known stout rifle. My prime example is a .257 Roberts. With any of the newer magnums I would say stop where the manufacturer and manuals say to stop. The pressures are a lot higher to begin with than older rounds. If you're already above the max I suggest stopping there. If you want a super tight group out your rifle I would suggest looking into the rifles that are built for that and not trying to extract too much velocity and getting your rifle and you possibly blown up in the process.
With that said, search online for the powder you are loading and data for that caliber. Many times there is a several grain discrepancy between manuals. Gather as much information as you can to see where the averages MAX load is. I have noticed that Barnes reloading manuals are very conservative in MAX load listings.
If you are going to exceed book MAX do so in .2 increments; be very mindful of ANY signs of excessive pressure. A sticky bolt lift, a primer getting real flat primer pockets getting loose are all signs you are getting out of hand with pressures.
Then finally; if you do go over MAX and run out of that lot of primers, powder or brass you need to start all over again.
Do you have a Chronograph?
What kind of accuracy are you getting and how will this pursuit benefit you? Taking additional risk for no significant gain is foolish.
Is this a mostly stock Weatherby with the normal Weatherby long freebore. IF NOT STOP RIGHT AWAY.
The long freebore does not let gas get by the bullet but it does delay and reduce the peak of the pressure time curve vs. normal freebore or bullet just .030 inches off the lands.
Tim
it is a new rifle with about 120 rounds put threw it it shoots great.but like every body else I would like to get more. as far as how much free bore it has I am not sure. how would you tell? my oal is 3.560 wich is .002 less than factory loads i do have access to a chronograph
A few different things could be going on here. One: Barnes loading data might be conservative. Two: your new gun might just be breaking in, firing the first few dozen rounds can lap some of the rough spots. Three: you might be getting more comfortable with the gun. Four: the .686 group might just be a lucky group.
As to how much freebore, a quick look did not turn up the spec's. It should be noticable look through the barrel.
If you are over 3200 fps on the chronograph I would be very careful.
How many shots in your groups? How many groups at the powder charge.
I would pause in the load development an shoot this load some. It is probably a very good place to be at. Good groups, good velocity.
If you decreased the group size by 0.100 inches and increased the velocity by 100 fps. You are probably at the point of deminishing returns.
At 600 yards the .600 decrease in target dispersion is going to be a smaller issue than your error in range and wind estimates. I know that every little bit counts but you need to work on the weak links in the chain and it does not look like accuracy and velocity are not going to be a problem.
Tim
"Inherently, reloading ammunition is dangerous. The application of a little common sense will go a long way in keeping you out of trouble."
The above is a statement from a friend of mine which is about as succinct as I could ever find with regard to reloading and that's why I wrote it down.
This is a clear assessment of reloading manuals and data:
"One of the best investments I feel I've made in handloading paraphernalia is handloading manuals and software. While they all may provide accurate information, each provides different information. Manuals from bullet manufacturers may offer numerous powder alternatives dependent upon their business alliances and biases. Powder manufacturers are primarily concerned with the use of their own brand products and may use generic bullet descriptions defined only by weight and type. It's nice to have a variety of manuals to compare loads and cross reference information."
(a quote taken from Real Guns http://www.realguns.com/archives/034.htm)
This is from the Barnes Bullets FAQ page online:
How does your XLC coating increase velocity if it reduces pressure?
Because it reduces pressure, an XLC-coated X-bullet requires a slightly increased powder charge to achieve the same velocity produced by an uncoated X-Bullet with the same charge. However, loading the bullet to maximum recommended pressures produces higher velocities than uncoated X-Bullets will safely deliver.
How much increase in velocity may I expect?
This figure varies from cartridge to cartridge; however it's usually around 100-150 fps.
Is there a standard percentage of increased velocity with your XLCs?
Our testing did not show a standard increase. That is why we recommend you use our data every time you load XLC bullets.
Why does the Barnes Reloading Manual #3 occasionally show a higher velocity/charge for an X-Bullet over an XLC?
In extreme cases, sometimes there was even a decrease in velocity. This is probably because brass, powder lot or barrel wear varied between the tests performed at different times. However, this is the exception; usually the XLC showed an increase in velocity with safe maximum charges.
Some basic information:
- Weatherby lists 3190 FPS as the velocity for their .300 WBY/180 gr. Barnes 'X' load on their website. Note this is for the naked bullet.
- The leade (or freebore if you wish) for the .300 WBY is measured as being 0.346" in length measured from the front of the transition angle and has a concentric diameter of 0.3084" along the entire length. The leade measures 0.3608" if you include the transition angle. You can think of this area simply as a pressure expansion or relief chamber without getting into a more complex mathematical explanation.
Barnes has been known to go both ways when it comes to their printed manuals. I have one that is a tad on the high side and their newest which appears to be a pinch conservative, maybe in reaction to the one that was high. They haven't printed that many editions so the contrast is more noticeable.
It's not unusual to see better groups when velocities approach the upper extremes of a cartridge/bullet combination, just ask the guys that shoot benchrest with the 6PPC. The trick is being able to discern where that safe point is while still achieving the best accuracy available to the shooter. This can be accomplished by using a chronograph in conjunction with your reloading manuals and the manufacturers data and keeping careful records.
- Every rifle is a unique system and therefore needs to be treated that way. This is part and parcel of working up loads for a particular rifle and why you can't just take another accuracy load and expect it to work as well in your rifle. As good as our manufacturing is, there are still too many vagaries between rifles, shooters and components including what can amount to vast differences in the burning rate of one type of powder. (Re-22 is one of these)
The reloading manuals are excellent guidelines for general purposes reloading but they cannot take into account all of the potential differences that may occur as pointed out above. However, you should pay strict attention to both ends of the loading data since too little powder can be as much of a problem as can too much. Always approach the upper end of the data with caution and proceed slowly with new charges and use a chronograph to help establish your data for your rifle.
I suggest that the you start a little lower and begin using a chronograph to help you create a graph of the velocities while working your loads back up. A graph of charge weight vs. velocity will show you where the charge increase doesn't yield an appreciable increase in velocity. You can also check the other traditional signs of pressure but most of those are based on how accurately the chamber in your rifle was cut and the degree of quality in your batch of cases.
My last suggestion is to just plain switch powders. I've found that Re-25 works better in my rifles when the cartridge capacity get up in the 90 to 110 grain realm. This should hold true with the .300 WBY and your bullet choice, it has in mine.
This is one of a dozen or so articles about working up accurate loads. Use a good search engine to locate others for a more thorough understanding of the entire process if you want.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/loaddev.htm
Best.
Thank you for taking the time to write your last post--sounds like really sound advice!![:)]
Those velocities are good but apparently close to the very top end. My guess, without being there, is that you're about as high as you should go but again, I'm not there. It could be that you have a bit more room. You have to be the final judge.
I use the Re-25 because I can get the velocity I need with the accompanying accuracy but with the slightly reduced pressure. It isn't going to be the very top velocities but it's the accuracy that I look for anyway.
Best.
Few loading manuals will be in precise agreement with any other. If you can't find at least one that matches what you want to try, with the same components, I'd stay away.
Just my 2 cents. Enjoy. Be safe.
Welcome to the Forums!
There will always be exceptions to both rules and accumulated data. Some exceptions have good explanations while others rate a shrug of the shoulders and an acceptance that something is different and we don't know why. You also don't supply us with enough information for a good evaluation.
Yours is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is from the standpoint that you don't mention any velocities. Two is that using the standard Overall Length assigned to the 300 WSM for magazine feeding and the supposed case capacity, you should have about two grains too much powder in your case at the 72.0 gr. load. Now you could be shooting single shot with the bullet seated out for more case capacity but there won't be much bullet left in the case neck nor will the increase be that significant. Or you're really compressing your powder but you could be vibrating the powder into the case also. We don't know, you'd have to share more information with us.
You could also have a slow lot # of the V V N-160 which is not impossible. You could have a tight chamber or harder brass that doesn't show many of the traditional pressure clues as quickly. The leade in your chamber could be longer or slightly larger in diameter. It could be that you have a system that allows for all of these factors and you are getting higher velocities with mild pressure but I doubt it.
If you have chronograph data, would you share it with us? If you don't, you should try to borrow or buy a chronograph to help with your reloading chores. It's a terrific piece of equipment that can be invaluable when trying to assess data like this. Winchester lists their 165 gr. load at 3125 FPS. This can function somewhat like a benchmark with which to compare your information.
If you want to bounce this around, post some more information.
Best.
The rifle im using is a kimber 8400 montana 300wsm, the projectiles are seated out just to touch the lands and im using winchester cases, i did chronograph one batch which was 67 grains and they were averaging 2985fps, so im unsure of how fast it is doing now. I also think that perhaps my chamber is larger than it should be as it can be quite difficult to resize - its been doing that from the lowest load i did which was around 60gr, and yes the powder was being compressed. I have decided that I am going to drop the load back to 68 grains because that is when it shot best, although there is only .2" in it but it'll be easier on the rifle and the bank balance. I did retest some more 72s and the bolt was a bit sticky, that is also one of the main reasons why im dropping it back. The primers are just standard winchester large rifle primers because thats all I have here. I would use fed 210 primers but my reloading adviser tells me that gains would be insignificant except maybe an increase in velocity.
I'd back down and run the ladder again using the OCW method.
Between problems with the forum code and this Microslop crap, I lost an hour's worth of information that I was composing for you. So this will be the short version as I have to get some client work to get done.
The VihtaVuori choice for your bullet weight is the Swift Scirocco which is 1.377" long and takes up more space in the case than does the Nosler BT (1.260") that you are shooting, hence the lighter load for the Scirocco. Therefore you can load more powder in the case for the Nosler than the Scirocco while maintaining similar pressures.
However, it appears that your 72.0 gr. loads exceed even what you can get away with using a shorter bullet. There is a 6,000 PSI difference between the loads for the same bullet weight and powder charge putting you way over the pressure limits that you should be using. Backing down to the 68.0 gr. load is a good move especially if it represents a more accurate load.
"I would use fed 210 primers but my reloading adviser tells me that gains would be insignificant except maybe an increase in velocity."
With respect for your reloading advisor, if what he states is true, we would need only one choice for primers and the benchrest folks would be going nuts! Multitudes of shooters test for primer choice due to the variable of potential accuracy. Primers do make a difference in group size. Your Winchesters are fine but other primers may show an increase or decrease in group size. That's why we shoot tests with them as the only variable.
Let us know how this continues.
Best.
I would like to thank every body for all the advice it really helps to hear what everybody thinks I am having a ball with all the shooting I am getting to do also that is always a good thing
Anybody heard what is going on with getting MRP back in the U.S.?
obviously there must be a reason fed primers are used so much, ive heard nothing but great things about them.
Thanks for the update and I'm glad that you're enjoying the shooting!
Check with Black Hills Ammuntion since they are the Master Importer for the Norma products in the U.S. I spoke with them at SHOTShow but I haven't had the time to get all of the little details worked out just yet. I would call them on the phone rather than using e-mail because most companies won't respond to e-mail due to the huge volume that they get on a daily basis.
Best.
I had to go look to realize that you're 18 hours at least ahead of my time. It's really tomorrow there in NZ.
I did some fairly extensive primer testing a while back and I continue to test primers with specific loads as the need arises. Simply switching primers can make a noticeable difference in the group size and shape. But what really shows up fast is the consistancy with which the velocities occur. It doesn't matter whether it is a rifle, pistol, hunting or target firearm.
I am a fan of accuracy so it doesn't matter to me which components I use as long as I get the best from them. The Federal primers have shown a high brizance (energy of explosion) but more importantly, they are extremely consistant primer to primer and batch to batch.
The Federal 210 and 210M get used most frequently in my reloading but the CCI's are seeing an increased use these days also. The Federal 215's are used for not only bulky and slow powders but for some of the hard to ignite ball powders as well. I used Federal primers when I owned a Lee Hand Primer but I haven't owned or used the Auto-Prime so I can't speak to any problems that might occur.
Best.