In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Neck sizing brass

victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
After you have fire formed your brass, whats the advantage of neck sizing instead of full length resizing?

Comments

  • dclocodcloco Member Posts: 2,967
    edited November -1
    Read this....I tried necksizing previously as well....

    Treat EACH rifle as a new girlfriend - find out what THEY like, regarless of hair color (caliber), height (length of barrel), or type of apertures (you can figure out what body parts this relates to). :)

    Read this...my experience with my 223...just 7 days ago.

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=208398
  • RustyNailRustyNail Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Neck-sizing allows the fired case to retain the "custom" fit to the gun from which it was previously fired. This supposedly increases accuracy since the case isn't "remodeling" during the next discharge.

    The brass will last a lot longer since you are only "re-working" a small area of the case.

    Less case trimming required for same reason.

    No messy lube is required.

    Considerably less effort/exertion.

    When neck-sizing you are pretty much allocating the round to a specific gun anyhow so I shallow-seat the first reload and chamber it in the intended gun. Remove the round and use it to set your bullet seating depth. (Go just a couple of thousandths deeper--you don't want zero headspace.) These will be accurate rounds for your gun since you have now custom tailored two variables specific to your gun.

    Personally, I'm not a good enough shot to appreciate the difference and I appreciate the "return to factory specs" you get when full-length sizing. This makes ammo interchangeable with other guns etc.

    Anyhow, I'm a novice reloader when it comes to rifles but this is my understanding/experience for what its worth. BTW, for what caliber are you reloading?
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The logic was that by only working the neck, and not bumping back the shoulders as well as decreasing body dia and expansion ring (where the case eventually seperates), your cases will last longer and be more accurate since it "should" be easy to keep a neck straight when only sizing the neck itself. However, expander balls, die seating lock rings, oversized internal die dimensions, etc lend themselves to misalignment. Many times a properly set FL die will load straighter ammo,..just with a much overworked case.

    I have found standard dies to be spotty on how well they will hold concentricity in the NK dies, with the exception of a few: Redding competition, Wilson, Forster, Lee Collet.

    When using a bushing style neck die, you can control your neck tension .001" at a time to tweek the load.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the replys. I'm going to neck size ten rounds.My manual for the Lee deluxe rifle die set, states that when neck resizing the shell it should be neck sized once then turn the shell a half turn and neck size it again.
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Those directions pretty much hold standard for all dies,..it makes a better neck if you spin the case a few 1/3's at a time.

    The Lee Collet die makes a very straight round for the price, I have several sets that are good for under .002" with unturned factory brass.

    Do a search on Partial Full Length Sizing also,..it has many merits IMHO. I have been using this method for a few years now, and it definitely appears to make some accurate rounds. I really don't like the overworking that FL sizing accomplishes.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    I just read my reloading mag by Hodgdon, it states that shooting neck sized ammo to many times in a short period of time is a no no.Why is that?
  • mrbrucemrbruce Member Posts: 3,374
    edited November -1
    The only possible reason for that would be that the cases will swell after a while and tend to chamber harder than normal they will then need to be sized down to fit the chamber again.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    victorlvlb,

    "...it states that shooting neck sized ammo to many times in a short period of time is a no no.Why is that?"

    Neck sizing only does not size the entire neck section of a case right down to the top of the shoulder. There is always a little bit of the neck left at the fired size. The other problem is case growth with neck sizing only. The shoulder has a tendency to move forward slightly every time that case is fired. Both of these contribute to harder than normal chambering or lack of chambering in some situations and work hardening of the neck which can lead to case separation at the neck and shoulder junction. Usually all you have to do is anneal those cases every 3 shots or so.

    The partial sizing works in most situations but you can also use a shoulder bumping die or a Redding body sizing only die.

    You're at the point where the subtle nuances of careful, accurate reloading can start to cost you a lot of money. It's funny how that happens... [^] but happen it does. The more you learn by doing and by asking, the more it generally costs. There is something to be said for the phrase 'ignorance is bliss'. Ignorance is also cheaper!

    You're on the right track.

    Best.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Thank you all for the replys. If I start out with fifty rounds of new brass, full length resize them,load them, fire them.Then neck size them all, trim them if needed, and reload them again.Would I have a problem firing all of them at the range in a period of two hours?Would I have to run a brush thru from the chamber thru the barrel every three rounds?Or could I just fire all fifty rounds and not worry about it?I've heard hunters brag about how great thier rifles grouped at the range, because they only necked sized the brass.Then turn around and say they only hunt with full length resized new brass.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I cannot see how the 'speed' of reloading brass has the slightest effect on anything. You cannot 'get it too hot' reloading at the bench...and time interval means little...at least in my not so humble opinion.

    Are you breaking in a new barrel ? The arguments rage about this..but consider this. Everytime you fire a bullet thru that bore..guilding metal is deposited here or there in the bore...the rougher the bore, the more metal deposited. You continue firing without cleaning and the deposits accumulates and grows towards the muzzle.

    By cleaning carefully, you allow that bullet to impinge directly upon the metal of the barrel...polishing and smoothing it. The smoother the bore..the less guilding metal deposited..the less cleaning.

    A new barrel, I shoot one shot, than clean..up to ten rounds. Then 3 rounds..to about 50, or I become exhausted, or the bore responds.

    A full resized case is MUCH less likely to cause any problems when afield hunting....and if you have several thousand dollars riding on that one shot..consider reliability.
    absolute benchrest accuracy takes a back seat to reliability in a hunting situation.

    By the way..if you have one of those Outers aluminum jointed cleaning rods...do your barrel a real favor and just sorta forget cleaning till several hundred rounds are fired. They will destroy a bore in so short a time you will not believe it.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Highball

    I was not talking about speed loading.I asking if I would have any problems firing fifty rounds of neck sized brass in a few hours at the range.If I fire fifty rounds at the range and none of the neck sized brass gives me a problem, I would say it would be reliable in any hunting situation.My rifle is over thirty years old, it been cleaned by some cheap brushes and cleaning rods.At one hundred yards my rifle will place three out three rounds one inch high of the center of the bull, that can be covered with a nickel.In other words my 3006 is sighted in for close to a two hundred yard shoot.
  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Congratulations.
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    it is not that neck sized brass will malfunction the first time,..it is that it gets "harder" as it is resized and fired a handfull of times. As this happens, the "spring-back" properties of the case will cease, and the fired cases will remain larger after firing. Finally, the lot of brass will become difficult to chamber and/or extract. That is not a good thing to have on a payed trophy hunt or even in your own stand as it could cause you to simply watch your trophy walk away whilst you are fighting with sticky rounds.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    victorlvlb,

    "Would I have a problem firing all of them at the range in a period of two hours?"

    It depends on the temperature of the day and your rate of fire. Straight math shows that you would be firing one shot every 2.4 minutes which is not a bad rate of fire. The idea is to let the barrel remain as cool as possible over the duration of the firing of all 50 shots. Faster rates of fire will heat the barrel up and can damage the interior of the barrel with throat erosion and advanced fouling which is not good.

    Some folks recommend firing 3 shots then waiting a minimum of 5 minutes for cooling before firing any more shots. I take another rifle or better several, to test at the same time so that I'm not sitting on my hands waiting for the cooling time to elapse. Shoot several tests or break in a couple of rifles, sight in that other new scope, shoot some pistol but let the rifle cool between shots.

    The next toy to talk about is a bore guide. This is a simple tool that you can either make or purchase which is used to protect your chamber and act as a guide for your cleaning rod. It is supposed to reduce the amount of damage that can result from improper or rushed cleaning techniques. If I needed to fire 50 shots at the range on one rifle, I would definitely clean at least 2 or 3 times carefully over the course of 50 shots. If you don't want to spend the money on buying one you can make one from an arrow shaft or something similar along with some rubber washers and gaskets.

    http://www.precisionreloading.com/bore_guides.htm

    http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?tabid=6&categoryid=8871&categorystring=10612***

    http://www.stoneypoint.com/boreallinone_index.html

    http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/catsearch.aspx?c=134&p=4795

    http://www.boretech.com/bore_guide.htm

    Best.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Thanks again for the replys.dcloco
    thats some fine shooting.I'm sorry if I come across like and old grouch.I only have half the roof on the den repaired, and I need some range time.nononsense&JustC, thanks for the info.
  • dclocodcloco Member Posts: 2,967
    edited November -1
    This is why everybody is here as well.

    Remember this, every time you ask a question, the question/answer post usually splits a couple times.

    You would be surprised how many posts answer multiple questions, that never get asked.

    I do not have that much experience in reloading....but I am making a lot of mistakes FAST! LOL!
  • its meits me Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I myself have a boretech bore guide, but a cheap option is just to use a bit of garden hose, might not seem perfect but better than nothing.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Well here goes, what do you all think about bore snakes,( the rope with a small piece of brass wire)?I run the bore snake thru by barrel three times after three shots at the range.I run the bore snake from the chamber to the end of the barrel every three shots.I take the bolt out before I run the bore snake thru the barrel.I think I can get some range time next week, I can see light at the end of the tunnel.The roof is done , I hope.The next two rain stroms will tell.You all have a fine week.[:D][:D][:D]
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    save up for a Dewey or bore-tech rod and a sinclair bore guide and solvent port. In the mean time, the snake will do, but is hardly close to a complete cleaning tool.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    JustC

    I'll get me a bore guide with a solvent port next time I go to the gun shop.But right now I rather go shooting not shopping.We have had so much rain in the last month or so ,that I'm either mowing the weeds and lawn , or fixing the roof over the den.Saturday I'll buy all the paint and brushes for painting the fascia of the den, I might even start painting some of the fascia.Sunday after church I'll be headed to the range, if it don't rain.
  • its meits me Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Get a bore-tech cleaning rod, you know the one peice ones? those are the Rolls Royce of cleaning rods. my bore guide has a solvent port but i never use it. wouldn't a bore snake be better suited to a hunting trip when you away for a few days or more??

    also, whats the idea of having a competition neck sizer? like the redding ones with the dial on top. i can understand the bullet seater being like that, so whats the big advantage neck sizer having one?
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    you can let it sit with wet solvents in the bore for a day or two, patching a few x/day with the snake. That will clean it well enough for now.

    The solvent port is a must when cleaning rifles on a cradle with the muzzle at a downward angle. You can drip the solvent right on the patch and not lose a drop on the floor or bench. It makes a cleaner, cleaning job[;)] [^]

    the micrometer sizer makes it possible to size the neck by .001"s at a time. This will allow you to only size enough neck to get correct neck tension while avoiding or retarding the appearance of the "doughnut" at the neck base. Also, by changing the amount of neck sized by .001"s allows you to perfect the neck tension for that bullet/case/powder/primer/chamber/barrel combination.
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    JustC

    I'll call the gun shop and order either a Dewy or bore tech rod & scinclair bore guide with a solvent port.They do come with instructions right?I might even talk my wife into picking it up for me.You don't use the solvent at the range do you? I'm thinking I'd only have to use the brush and a patch at the range, right?
  • its meits me Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    but..if your projectile is going all the way down the neck and even into the case wouldnt u want the whole neck sized?

    and i never drip any solvent! the solvent i use has a little spout thing on the top of the bottle, so i just pour it on to the cloth, and the cloth absorbs it and doesnt drip, plus u can put it on both sides of the patch so it isnt only on one side of the cloth, dont know what difference it makes.
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    victor, the sinclair bore guide can only be purchased through them www.sinclairintl.com The dewey or bore-tech can be purchased through them as well to save on shipping costs. Directions are simple,..remove the bolt, insert the guide into the chamber through the raceway until it stops, then stick the solvent port in the back with the window facing up, insert rod with patch into guide until you see the patch in the window, twist the rod and patch while dripping solvent on the circumference of the patch, then continue feeding the rod/patch into and down the bore. Patch should pop loose of the jag at the muzzle end as the rod is drawn back.

    The main reason for the guide is to save premature wear on the throat from the misaligned jag.

    its me,...the projectile may appear to be into the case internals, but the bearing surface probably won't be down that far. The bearing surface is the only part that touches the neck. And, if you are loading long to try and get a better proximity to the lands, then the bearing surface is moved more toward the case mouth and may only contact for 1/2 or 1/3 the neck, therefore that is all the neck that needs to be worked each time. Continual full neck sizing will overwork the neck more quickly and can possibly lead to that doughnut forming at the neck/shoulder junction which will affect ignition and plasma flow leading to a loss of accuracy.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    its me,

    "but..if your projectile is going all the way down the neck and even into the case wouldnt u want the whole neck sized?"

    Leaving a bit of the neck unsized also allows for the neck to help in getting the cartridge centered as it enters the chamber since it remains at the fired (chamber) size minus a little spring back.

    You can see in the photograph below that it doesn't take much neck to hold and control a bullet, even one large in diameter and long. So if a small portion of a 'standard' neck is left unsized, it won't make much difference anyway. This is a real cartridge and is being fielded in actual benchrest competitions. They are calling it the Wolf Pup.

    WolfPup_Nyhus.jpg


    "and i never drip any solvent!"

    Well I do and sometimes it's quite a bit when I rush, so I use a bore guide and solvent port. This is both a guide for the rod into the bore which saves the throat but with the solvent port, I don't have to worry about my wood stocked rifles getting soggy or ruining a very expensive paint job on a competition rifle. It also helps to prevent the build-up of gunk from dust and dirt getting trapped by the spilt solvent.

    Best.
  • its meits me Member Posts: 12 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    now that i think about it.. i am always washing the solvent off my hand..maybe i should use the solvent port on it [:)] btw, thats a beautiful group there. .105 thats insane :P

    and thanks for all the info, ill half size the neck from now on!
  • redboneusaredboneusa Member Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thought I would jump in on the range cleaning stuff. I found a product several years ago that has replaced all of the solvens that I used to use. The cleaner is called WIPE-OUT, it is a foaming, brushless cleaner. It is unreal haow easy it makes cleaning your bore. When I am shooting at the range and cleaning between strings I also take a product made by the same people called WIPE-OUT ACCELERATOR. It is a liquid that you wet the bore with then spray in the foam. It works really fast and will get you back to bare metal faster than anything I have ever used.
    The Outers foam at WalMart is not the same stuff, and is a pain to get in the bore.
    Once you get the hang of how to apply the foam there is little waste.
    To keep it out of the action and stock while soaking in the cleaning cradle I make sure the muzzle is slightly lower than the reciever and the turn the rifle upside down in the cradle so any run out will drip out and not get into the action, be sure to put a rag or paper towel between the scope body and the rifle.
    The cleaners are made in Paola, Kansas and sold by Paul co. Inc.
    There web site is www.sharpshooter.com

    Good Luck
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    redboneusa

    We have a problem, if i go to the site you gave me its all about kids toys.Are you pulling my leg ?[:)][:)][:)]
  • redboneusaredboneusa Member Posts: 28 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    CORRECTION CORRECTION CORRECTION

    Sorry, I had too many fingers in the way while typing the site address.

    The correct address is www.sharpshootr.com
    There is no E in shooter.

    My appologies
  • victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    redboneusa
    Thanks.
Sign In or Register to comment.