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How slow is too slow of a powder burn.
sandwarrior
Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
For any of you handloaders out there who are reloading for the WSM's, I would like to know what you use for the slowest powders? Also, as a kind of a lark is 50 BMG powder(surplus 5010 or WCC860) too slow to use in these.
The reason I ask is I've tried 4831 and VV165 and am not getting the velocities hoped for before getting into pressure signs. I haven't yet gone with the really slow powders but while looking at them I noticed they were in the same relative ballpark as 50 cal. powder. Since surplus isn't expensive I was wondering had anyone tried them. If so would you think staying with brand name powders vs. slow surplus powders would be the way to go? Anyways thanks for your thoughts in advance.
The reason I ask is I've tried 4831 and VV165 and am not getting the velocities hoped for before getting into pressure signs. I haven't yet gone with the really slow powders but while looking at them I noticed they were in the same relative ballpark as 50 cal. powder. Since surplus isn't expensive I was wondering had anyone tried them. If so would you think staying with brand name powders vs. slow surplus powders would be the way to go? Anyways thanks for your thoughts in advance.
Comments
"...and am not getting the velocities hoped for before getting into pressure signs."
You've read this drill before:
What pressure signs are you seeing?
What velocities do you think you should be getting?
Whose brass are you loading?
Did you switch primers?
Is your chamber cut correctly or is it slightly oversize from normal?
I don't think those S-L-O-W powders are the solution. One, you won't even get close to the velocity that you want and two you will be blasting large amounts of unburned powder out of the muzzle. Fouling will be extreme.
I just did a 7mm WSM and I used both H-4831 SC and V V N-165 with 150 gr. Nosler Partitions in the test loads. The accuracy loads yielded about 3100 FPS on average which is not tops but close enough for this rifle. The V V N100 series never gives me the velocities that I expect and can get from the other powders especially when I use the Reloader series. You could jump up to the 500 series powders if this is a hunting rifle and get some better numbers. Or maybe try the Ramshot powders.
How about switching primers? Are you using the Federals? Maybe try some Winchesters.
I'm out all day and into the evening so I'll check when I get home tonight.
Best.
Still only getting 2800-2860 range with different loads with the 168 gr. I've used Win std and Win Magnum and Federal Magnum. primers. Using Win brass, the pressure signs are flattened heads, flattened and way double dimpled primers. Heat signs on the side of the case. Moving + .2-.3 gr up and down from 65 with VVN165. I'm still only getting 2860 fps.
The reason I'm inquiring about this is each reloading manual I've gone through, the slower powders are pushing the heavier bullets faster. And, as mentioned in the original post, the slowest powders aren't that far off in the burn scale from the .50 cal powders. My goal, if reasonable, is to push a 168 gr. bullet out to 2900-2950. So, I'm around a little more than 100 fps shy of where I want to be. I'm not really all that far ahead of my 7x57 in that I get 2660 out of it without showing max pressure signs. Thanks for your help nononsense.
Which weight bullets ? What length bbl ? Most of these guns only have 23"-24" bbls max. and some shorter. Not alot of bbl to help burn powder and relativly small case capacity.
I've gotten just as good of results with "mediuum" burn rate powders on up to Plain old IMR4350. Pretty much the same stuff that works well in a 30.06 has worked well in the ones I've loaded for [:0].
Catch you later.....................................................
Sorry it's so late, long day...
"Using Win brass, the pressure signs are flattened heads, flattened and way double dimpled primers."
Since this is the primary concern, let's take a minute with this. I think you either have a slight headspace problem with maybe setting the shoulder back or...
Did you happen to leave a little (tiny bit) of oil or oil based cleaner in your chamber by accident?
The 'double dimpled primers' is usually an indication that the firing pin pushed the cartridge case forward while igniting the primer then the powder ignition raised the pressure and pushed the case back against the now slightly protruding firing pin in the boltface. This can occur with either the headspace problem or an oily chamber.
Slower powders are another story altogether. I think you have the right burn rate already but if think you need to go slower then take a look at Ramshot Magnum, Re-25 or even Winchester WXR. The Winchester might yield the higher velocity at a slightly reduced pressure. Either of the other two will work to get the level of velocity you want at a reasonable pressure. I can't imagine using anything slower unless you wanted to try it just to be sure that you didn't miss anything. This case is too small to get enough powder in and your barrel is most likely too short to use the slow powders and get anything out of it.
You're going to have to put your detective hat on for this one. If you see something more pass it on and let's talk about it.
Best.
Thanks for the replies. I understand long days, working overnights then trying to adjust to days off is difficult. Just so I get all the factors figured in here, the rifle is a Win 70 coyote w/stainless barrel in 7mm WSM. This is more the one I'm having issues getting up to speed. The 300 WSM is doing okay, not great but okay... haven't done near as much load development with it either. Standard procedure for me is to dry patch until clean just in case some residue drained somewhere it shouldn't have, usually two patches at most. Bore mop the chamber. All the rounds are wiped after loading. You can still feel a little residue from the sizing lube but not much. I've been loading up a ladder starting with 62 gr. of VV165 up to 65.3 gr. under a 168 gr. Berger. I jumped .5 from 62-64.5 and .2 from there on up. Anyways no pressure signs until I hit 64.7 and 64.9 some signs but not bad(cupping dimple on primer, the lower loads all came out normal). It was at 65.1 that they really showed(also, the bolt was stiffer to move this time). So, I pulled the 65.3 loads. I started with 61 grs. of VVN160 and worked up to 63.5 gr. with it the same way. Anyhow, that was the best chrono'ing load at 2860.
I know this is whipping the dead horse here but it's that last 100 fps that I'm trying to get that just isn't there. My whole issue with it is I can get 2660 from my 7x57 with no pressure signs and I'm thinking why use 20 more grains of powder and take all that kick if I'm not going to meet the ballistic goal. I might as well stay with the lower power round and just add some elevation.
On a sidenote, I tried the Berger 180's with it also and used 62.2 gr. of VV165 and felt that was about maximum as I started to see the dimple in the primer exaggerate itself. I got 2771 fps. with that which wasn't bad but the accuracy went down. Probably because those require a 1-9" twist and I have a 1-10" twist. No keyholing but they sure spread out compared to the 168's. I'm at the point this is just going to require a couple new slower powders to the pile I have sitting up on the shelf. And I'll just have to try them. As much fun as it sounds though I don't think I'll do any of the 50 BMG powders.
how much neck tension are you using? Too little?
are you seeing heavy carbon residue in relatively few rounds?
I've not loaded the 7mmWSM, so I can't speak directly to it.
I have loaded the 300WSM & the 270WSM and from what I saw with them I don't think you have much to gain with very slow burning powders in that case size with those bbl lengths.
I tried IMR7828 in the 300 and got less than 20fps av. increase over IMR4350 with an additional 5-6grs of powder and worse accuracy. This was in a SAKO 75 with 180gr bullets. RL22 gave a little better velocity than the IMR7828 (about 15-20fps av.) with a grain or two less powder, but the accuracy was best loaded back down another couple of grains which made it slower than the best accuracy loads for the IMR4350.
RL19 & W760 got similar velocity as the 4350. -- Viht N550 was accurate but lost about 50-60fps av. velocity compared to 4350.
IMR4831 actually got about 50fps more av. velocity than the slower burning 7828 because the 7828 started showing pressure signs sooner than the 4831. -- I don't think slower powder is the way to go in this size case.
With light 150gr bullets in the 300, the same powders that work well in the 30.06 worked in the 300 for me, with IMR4064 working as well as anything.
In the 270 WSM IMR4350 & RL19 gave almost identical results with the 4350 being slightly more accurate and the RL19 being a tad faster with 130gr bullets. -- The one exception to all of this was in the 270 WSM with 130gr bullets and RL25 powder. It actually got a little over 3400FPS with one load but was starting to show pressure signs. -- This was in a rifle with a tight 24" match grade bbl.
FWIW - On a darker note that you probably don't want to hear, I've seen a couple of those Win. Coyote rifles with bad bbls. One that was sent back to Winchester early in their production run which they rebarreled at the factory and another one that just runs slow against a clock and is pretty inaccurate. They are both light caliber varmit guns. I don't think they had very good bbls on them as a rule. -- You may have just gotten one with a "slow" bbl as mentioned by JustC [V].
Hope this rambling helps -- Good Luck............[^]
P.S. = As a side note I thought I might mention that I never got around to trying the RL25 in the 300 WSM, so don't know what to tell you about it for that cartridge.
As close as the 270WSM and the 7mmWSM are in bore size, and with a little additional case capacity and the heavier bullets you're using it might be worth trying.
And if it makes you feel any better, I've got a 30.06 with a 26" match grade bbl that I built way back when that is very close to the 300WSM in velocity, and I'd still take a good 300 Win. Mag. over the 300WSM. -- Sometimes newer isn't always better [:0].
As for how it shoots though it does well with the 168's. It will typically print MOA(have done better also) at 300 yds. with the 168's loaded from 63 up to 64.9 grs. of VVN160 (even though the last two showed a little bit of pressure signs). The 180's were around 2.5 MOA. I didn't really think it was me because I was holding pretty steady on the target that day. The scope was pretty close to returning to target after the shot also. So not dealing with one of those unkown strains that throws you off.
Also, forgot to add. 58 grs. of 4831 gives 2807 behind a 168. Haven't tried it with the 180's.