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Berger Bullets
TX-Hunter
Member Posts: 17 ✭✭
OK, first off I'm new to reloading but NOT guns or hunting, my average shot is around 400 yards while hunting. I shoot a 700 Remington 7mm mag. The barrel is stock, I've bedded the action, floated the barrel, the barrel has a 9.5 twist rate. From what I'm gathering with all my reading and studying of this bullet (along with my range time) is that the berger bullets like a better twist rate. The best velocity I could get was around 2840, I'm using Hogdon powder. I chose the berger because of it GREAT BC (over .600) and the 168 because of its great expansion on impact. But I was hopping to get above 2900. Any Ideas, comments, ANYTHING?
Lee
Lee
Comments
What powder are you using ? If it's anything faster than H4831, that may be your problem.
As far as expansion on impact, don't forget these are target bullets your talking about, and they are not 100% reliable on live targets.
Just for the fun of it pop a 140 - 150 grain Ballistic tip out of the old girl with a lot of H-4831 behind it and see what happens.
As of late I see on the Berger Website that specific bullets are advertised for hunting. They make excellent varmint bullets. I don't know how to completely answer this as I can't get Berger's site to show completely on my screen. But, the bullets are generally thin skinned and will therefore fragment at high speeds as opposed to mushrooming and retaining weight. In the past I have used almost exclusively Sierra bullets to kill deer, antelope and an elk. As you know Sierra's have the reputation of being thinner skinned and not as good a 'performer' on big game. I will say that while the bullets didn't hold together the effect of them was devastating internally for each of the animals. I shoot ribcages or necks. I never shoot shoulders to 'break them down'. I've never had an animal get up and run from me (20 in all). Elk in Montana are notorious for using this as a three legged chance for escape. They die eventually and are usually found after a lengthy tracking session. I've come across more than a couple in this condition. With the Bergers I would say a ribcage shot would be just the ticket. At very high velocities you should get massive expansion if not fragmentation.
As for twist rate the 1-10" stabilizes the 168's quit nicely. I am working with the 180's and finding they stabiize okay(no keyholing) but accuracy drops off. They recommend a 1-9" twist. I have a feeling that's the reason.
For the 7mm Rem Mag the highest I ever loaded was the 160 gr. bullets. It sticks in my mind though that I used 61 grs of 4350 behind 160 gr. bullets. The best powder to use would be the H4831. 63 or so grains should get you 2900 fps if you have a 26" barrel. Start at 61 and work up. Also, Re 19 should get you 2900 with 63+ grs. If you want to get there for sure try Ramshot Magnum, or Retumbo, Those will take abot 70 grs. to get you there but you can continue upward with those.
I'll include my standard word of caution about using belted magnum brass too much if you full length size. After about four or five resizings there begins to be a thin spot just forward of the belt. I recommend if loading any belted magnum that you neckize only or better yet use a collet die. RCBS X-sizers help but I haven't used one. Proper lubrication of the case will prevent stretch and help you find your answer without having to change brass several times through your trials with your loads. -good luck
"...the berger bullets like a better twist rate."
Do you mean a faster twist rate? If yes, I'm not sure that this is completely true. I've talked to Walt Berger about most of his designs and they (Berger) are usually pretty close with their twist recommendations. The Bergers you're using generally require a 1:10" twist so the 1:9.5" in your barrel should be sufficient. Measure the twist you have just to be sure.
The next thing I would do is have the barrel set back either 1 or 2 threads and re-cut the chamber so that your magazine length cartridges loaded with the 168 gr. Bergers are seated at the lands in the throat. Do not use a reamer with a long throat. If your gunsmith doesn't understand this, find a new gunsmith to handle this job. As long as the barrel's off, have him cut a new crown just for good measure.
The third suggestion is to try another powder like Re-25 which should get you not only 2900 FPS but even a pinch more if you're careful while still remaining at a reasonable pressure. Hopefully the velocities that you mention are derive from a chronograph because that tool will be extremely helpful when you're working up new loads.
The Bergers make fine hunting bullets even though there are still a number of folks that think that they are only 'target' bullets. It's no different than the same people that fault the use of Sierra Match Kings for long range hunting. They don't know, they're repeating what they've heard or read on the internet.
However, if you have any reservations at all, switch bullets. You need to have confidence in all of your choices including the bullets. The manufacturers have created an abundance of types and styles of bullets to choose from these days but don't forget about the 'old standbys' such as the Nosler Partitions either.
As an aside, neither the high BCs or hyper velocities kill an animal any better than average velocities and a properly constructed bullet.
Best.
I agree totally on your comment "neither the high BCs or hyper velocities kill an animal" I couldn't agree more, but its a "hell of alot of fun trying new toys"
Thanks for all your info and advice, what I've learned so far on reloading is THAT I DON'T KNOW SQUAT. But sure trying to learn all I can.
Lee
The part about jumping to the lands does a small part in reducing shot start pressure by allowing some of the initial plasma to go past the bullet before the bullet seals the bore. Think Weatherby freebore but in a very slightly different way. It's not unusual to get a long throated chamber from Remington. I set them back in order to have the option of seating to the lands. My loads seem to work better with the Bergers seated to the lands. But as you point out, every gun and every load is an individual event. That's why we test.
You can also consider Ramshot Magnum, Norma MRP or V V N-165.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/reloder_25.htm
http://www.realguns.com/loads/7mm.htm
http://www.slatesafaris.com/7mm_reloading.htm
Best.
edited for spelling...
HELP PLEASE......
Lee
It's not a problem. Check your e-mail for additional information.
Best.
Well, I'm using your e-mail contact link that you entered in your profile. I've sent another e-mail the same way. If this link is no longer valid please let me know.
Best.
Thats the same one I registered with. But I have no mail there?
Lee
All you need to do is go to the Alliant Powder site and start with the Sierra 175 gr. Spitzer load which will be at the same pressure level as the 168 gr. Berger. The accepted practice is to start about 10% below the charge listed and work up slowly looking for signs of pressure. Your chronograph will be a big help in establishing the peak level of velocitty as you work up.
Don't hesitate to try the Noslers either if you have the time.
Best.
from what I've heard is that soft is good for long range because the bullet is going slower so its easier for a soft bullet to expand rather than a tough one. I think [?]
Thanks again to ALL that responded, what a great place for information and "stuff". I've registered to buy and sell on the site. WAY KEWL.
Lee
Stay safe
Lee
Anyway a HUGE thanks to all that responded to my PLEE for help.
Lee
shot is 400yds and you're dropping game,
foget about velocity you ain't doing
nothing wrong.Do you know
how many hunters can really pull that
off? Not many ,no matter what rig they're
using. A lot of 'em wish though.
I grew up in Montana. Longest shot that I ever saw, and killed an large game animal with...250 yards (deer running!) with a 30/30 lever action. This person KNEW what his rifle was capable of AND what he was capable of as well. My jaw was on the ground....all the way down the hill. Two other hunters 1/2 mile from us, watched as well. They hiked all the way down to us...and could not believe the shot either. They said BS when we told them what rifle made the shot. They thought I shot it with a custom 8mm Mauser. This was in the river breaks - picture many, deep fingers that empty into the flat drainage basin.
Yes, I have seen longer shots taken, by "good" hunters (read that been hunting forever), but no kills.
Lee
I don't think the post was calling B.S. I do like your theory though of getting the best bullet you can to see just exactly how good your rifle can shoot. When you can double that and take that load hunting it's quite a plus. It's great to know that you have the load and more importantly the information on how to make a 500-600 yd. shot. You will never be able to be sure of the shot though, unless you get some wide open ground and do some shooting at some specifically long ranges. And you're right, I've seen a lot of cases where 400 yds is not uncommon to take a shot at elk. What happens is mot people get to that range with their rifle and don't know where it hits. That, to me anyways, is the single biggest factor people miss or wound an animal. They don't trust, or again know, their load.
Something I've found over the years though is to add a little elevation in when you zero. A little easier to hold at the bottom of the kill zone up close and know where it hits out longer. Adding a couple hundred feet per second doesn't do all that much until you get out past 500 yds. Even then the more critical factor is a high B.C. And, anything past 350 yds. is going to need elevation correction anyways. It's just a matter of how much correction you have to give. The higher B.C. will also retain velocity, therefore energy, better also. -good luck
hahaha... So I have plenty of opportunity for working up my loads for the "Long Shots". I do understand they won't react the same here at a 3000 ft elevation as they will Elk hunting at 7000-9000 ft elevation in Colorado along with different humidities and the low temperatures. But that's why they call it "hunting and NOT killing huh".
I agree completely with the BC being critical out there past the 500 yd mark, thats one of the big reasons I chose the Berger bullet. It has a BC of over .600. I am in high hopes of, this time next year, having calibrated bullet compensator knobs on my nikon
Anyway Thanks again for the post.
Lee
Did a few operations out in Midland-Odessa(Big Springs) and over in Oro Grande NM (White Sands) and yes I know what you mean about flat. Some areas are flatter than others...that is one of them. A great place for testing long range shooting. Good luck with the Berger testing and I hope you get up to CO with the knowledge of just exactly how well they can do. -best of luck to you