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Is this safe...Hurry before I blow myself up!!!

n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
I just had a new rifle built in .300 Win A.I. and my new chamber is .077 shorter than the factory .300 Win was. The old chamber was 2.955 from the head of the case to the ogive where it meets the rifling. The new chamber measures 2.878 to the ogive. I have a bunch of old reloads that I want to use to break my barrel in with and the bullets were seated to an overall length of 2.950 to the ogive. I just finished seating these a little deeper to the overall lenth (to the ogive) of 2.868 which should be .010 off the rifling. I do not remember what load was used with these reloads. In your opinion (no, I won't hold you to it[;)]), am I safe to fire these in my new rifle. I cannot see why not, but something is bugging me about it...Thanks for the feedback!

Eric
allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

All American Arms Company

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Comments

  • brier-49brier-49 Member Posts: 7,103 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    if it was me i wouldn't use them.i always keep my reloads marked.use your bullet puller, reuse the cases and bullets if bullets are not mared to badly by the crimp.

    gun control is not about guns, it is about CONTROL!
  • richbugrichbug Member Posts: 3,650
    edited November -1
    As stated somewhere else, shoot them. The AI shoulder is your safety margin.

    .
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ECC,

    When you say headspace I refer to the shoulder length. If the cases chamber without forcing them too hard your headspace is good. If you are going to the AI chamber with standard cases you should have a little bit of force to get them to chamber but not a lot. The standard case will fireform out to the AI case.

    Now for the C.O.L. question. If your bullets are .010 off the lands you will be safe, provided the load is normally safe. If your bullets are in the lands you will not be safe unless you have these tolerances checked and cleared by a benchrest knowing gunsmith. The only bullets I use that go to(at) the lands are Bergers. Some benchresters seat some of their bullets into the lands. Again, this is a practice that is really only safe in a very close tolerance rifle that has been worked on to make it safe.

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Eric,

    None of the above really matters in the short run or the long run.

    There is no reason to shoot these ever. Unload them no matter what. Your safety is the most important thing here, not a few cartridges.

    I'm not trying to be rude to anyone but Ackley or not, safe starting load or not, these could prove to be very unsafe. You don't remember the load and we certainly don't know so why even begin to take a chance. It's silly. To be absolutely safe you need to unload these cartridges and start over and work your way up to a safe load at the length that you have chosen to work with in your new rifle's chamber.

    Headspace for a belted magnum is from the base of the cartridge to the front of the belt until and if the cartridge is fireformed in the chamber and the shoulder is not set back when reloaded.

    Best.

    rifleman.gif
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    Well, I did not blow myself up, but there were some pressure signs...and I'm not sure why but this thing kicked a lot more than a .300 Win...the Jewel trigger even cut my finger. The primer filled the pocket and there is a ridge around the firing pin crater. The line where the neck transitions to the shoulder was cracked half way around the case, with two splits half way up the neck on either side of the shoulder crack. There was also a slight shiny ring near the head of the case. Guess I'll have to pull these bullets...

    Eric
    allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
  • shooter93shooter93 Member Posts: 322 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nononsense was..is 100% correct. You are lucky you only had the problems you did.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Eric,

    I gotta say that I have to agree with nononsense, JuctC and Brier-49. I apologize that I wasn't adamant enough about your safety to say you should have pulled the bullets. You now know two things.
    1. Keep records on your loads and know the relative pressures you are working with. Anything loose that you don't know where it came from doesn't have a record.
    2. When you don't know what is in something you reloaded a while ago pull the bullets and start from scratch. Safety is, in the long run, more economical than a couple of bullets.

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is my 4th reply[:D] If you DO NOT have the shoulder crush where the datum line is moved rearward by several .001"s, then the chamber is INCORRECT.

    Your chamber must press an unloaded case against the boltface with the decreased datum line of the ackley shoulder to be correctly done. Also,..I HIGHLY recommend jamming the pill into the lands by a good .010" to get a compressed chamber fit. The ackley needs to get it's brass flow from the neck and NOT from the casehead area. Once they are formed, seating can be changed,..but I ALWAYS jamm my fireform loads.

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JustC,

    Do you load full power rounds for the fireforming or slightly/a lot reduced? All the firforming I ever did with the .257 Rbts AI was shoot factory loads. Those were pretty mild to start with.

    Note: that is what I meant also in my earlier post about having to use a little bit of force to close the bolt. Ackley's, at least the one I worked with, had a (like you said) .002" short chamber so you would get a good seat on the shoulder/neck area.

    I would presume though that ECC's gunsmith should know this.

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sandwarrior,..I used to pick a mid range charge of a fast powder to fireform, but in the past few years, I use the powder and pill I want to use, and work my load ladder while forming the brass at the same time. It is suprising how close the accuracy loads on formed brass will be to those that were the accuracy loads during fireforming. This way, you save more barrel life[;)][8D]

    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JustC,

    You certainly have to like saving the barrels, raising kids and having room for a custom barrel is pretty hard to do. Next time I go with an Ackley(I almost did this time with the 6mm Rem AI, but decided for feeding purposes the standard Mauser case would be a little simpler) I will give that a shot.

    I don't know if it is related but when working up the Swiss 7.5x55 in my K-31's I noted they have a blown out shoulder from the standard 7.5. I noted also that they shoot standard cases almost if not as accurate as the reloads I shoot using the Redding die that gives the closer tolerance on the shoulder. The whole situation with them reminds very much of Ackley's cartridge design principle. The parent cartridge is every bit as accurate as the modified.

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You know,..I would not have beleived it until I saw just what you described. I bought a box of rem prem 140gr NBT's to form in my 280AI chamber, and at 100yds, I had some .250+/-" groups. I was stunned to say the least. At least I can always grab a box of those in a pinch[;)]

    Now from what I understand the 257rbts is one of, if not THE case that gains the most from the AI conversion. So, when you are blowing out that much case, you are certainly using a bit of the pressure to blow out the case body which "should" decrease the pressure curve as the internal capacity is increasing 3 dimensionaly. Not only is the bullet moving away from the casehead which increases the compression chamber size, but at the same time it is growing much more 360* around as the body taper is removed than it would in the parent chamber, and this further increases the size of the compression chamber and speeds up the decrease in pressure.


    why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
    Got Balistics?
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    JustC,

    Years ago when I worked with my friend on loads for his .257 Ackley We noted that we got good factory accuracy out of the box nothing better than what I got out of my dads .257, 1"-1 1/2" groups. It was a different story when we took some of our handloads and ran them through his Ackley. That's when we started getting 1/2" -1/4" groups. Of course he got that with his handloads after that.

    Most people say that the .257 Rbts AI was Ackley's best work. Ackley said his best work was the 250/3000 AI. He got better than standard .257 velocities with it. His .257AI only equaled 25-06 velocities. Either way, I wouldn't mind having both...or all three. I would really like to see something for the .25 cals in a 1-9" twist or 1-8" twist and start seeing some bullets in the 125-135 range. The market will need to drive that though.

    My mention of the 7.5 Swiss being similar in character and possibly having influence on Ackleys work coincides possibly with the fact that he was earning his degree in engineering while the K-31 was being developed. Who knows?, quite possibly the similarity isn't just a coincidence. It does lack his signature 40* shoulder though.

    We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
  • darksiderdarksider Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    when doing ai calibers the oringial go-gauge becomes the no-go and you need to get a new go gauge with the AI chambering you can shoot factory ammo and it will shot good just be a little slower reason being larger boiler smaller amount of fuelto make gas
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