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Magnum primers in normal loads; advise??

WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
I bought some Military CCI #34 primers which say to use Magnum data.

I ignored that (Hey, what do they know???) and loaded up some 8MM with Euro flake powder using the same tried load with Fed 210 primers and 198 gr bullets.
Mind you I used 36.5 gr of flake which normally means I set my sites at 400 yards to shoot at 100.
My VZ-24 shot 12 iches high and had buldging primers. Not terrible but enough to say we need something else.
So, I put some in My dou43 which has a 100 meter sight and shot that. It was a little high but the primers did not buldge so fired them all (ten)
But, they were not accurate like normally (2 inches) these were about 5 inch groups so I thought someone here may have tried these or aother magnum (CCI says to use magnum data for these #34) loads and have some suggestions on what differences there are and what direction to take.

Wulfmann


Moved to Competition and Reloading
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"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck

Comments

  • 1KYDSTR1KYDSTR Member Posts: 2,357 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mag primers in normal loads is something I've done for years...I just reel it back about %10 to start and go from there. I would say that if you see popped primers you might want to throw a head space gauge at it. One 8mm doing it and not the other makes me think that direction. Pressure indications will tend to rear their ugly head earlier when things are a little out of spec.

    Have you run this by the guys on the reloading area of the forum yet? I'm sure they will be happy to go over this with you.
  • B17-P51B17-P51 Member Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I got 3000 magnum primers for free and use them in plinking 223 loads and have no problems
  • konamtbikerkonamtbiker Member Posts: 284 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nothing wrong with using magnum primers in non-magnum chambers. Just start by reducing load by 10% and you will be ok. Infact i would suggest using magnum Match primers. Such as the 215M by Federal. Its a Match Magnum primer. I use them in my 25-06.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 30,898 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It sounds like headspace from pushing the shoulder back too far when reloading. How do you have the dies set up?
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Have shot many different things in that VZ24 without a problem, at least until now.
    I will see my GS tomorrow and will take it along to do a chamber check to be safe.
    I know how much things can change by changing primers.
    I tried some remington 9 1/2 once and they would have required starting load data from scratch so I sold them
    Funny that Fed 210 or match and W-LR seem to almost interchange on my guns, all of them.

    It is likely I just need to start from square one and make sure that VZ24 is spaced OK.

    In 223 with ball powder magnum would actually be the recommended powder wereas Euro flake and 4895 non magnum are what is called for.
    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
    It sounds like headspace from pushing the shoulder back too far when reloading. How do you have the dies set up?


    If that were true the very same cases would not have been fine in the other 98 action which they were.

    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • steve4102steve4102 Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Wulfmann
    quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
    It sounds like headspace from pushing the shoulder back too far when reloading. How do you have the dies set up?


    If that were true the very same cases would not have been fine in the other 98 action which they were.

    Wulfmann


    NO, Wrong! Two different rifles, two different chamber measurements!
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by steve4102
    quote:Originally posted by Wulfmann
    quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
    It sounds like headspace from pushing the shoulder back too far when reloading. How do you have the dies set up?


    If that were true the very same cases would not have been fine in the other 98 action which they were.

    Wulfmann


    NO, Wrong! Two different rifles, two different chamber measurements!


    And yet they both have fired other ammo in various loads over the last few months without this problem.
    The one different factor now is the primers.
    Now, it is certainly a possibility a slight difference is now maginified by a higher pressure which is why I am taking the VZ over to my GS to Czech (LOL) the chamber.
    I will lety you know how it guages

    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    Wulfmann,

    I think everyone hit the nail on the head with this one. If the primer was flattened out to the point is relatively sharp on the corners and there is cratering then that is a hot load. When you say bulged it just seems like it's popped out a bit. Was it loose in the pocket? If loose then good chance you have a hot load. If not it's a headspace issue.

    I ran into this same problem, sort of, while fire-forming 7mm TCU brass. All the primers were pushed back out of the case about 1/32". I thought I had a really hot load, which seemed natural bacause the case was small. A friend pointed out to me the primer showed no 'hot' signs it was just pushed out a bit. And since he had gone through the same thing said that was just part of the fire-forming process. Point being was that it too was a minor headspace problem.
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just returned for my Mauser gunsmith. He checked for head space. His verdict.

    It is perfect!

    The primer was buldged out rounded. Three rounds all the same and they fired 12 inches high at 100 yards.
    Over pressure does not just come from "hot" loads.
    It comes from too light a load as well.
    The lack of burn can slow the bullets down and create back pressure that causes the primer to buldge.
    But, the differnece here is the first time using a #34 military LR primer that CCI says to use magnum data on.
    I used a 36.5 gr load of Yugo Euro flake.
    The normal Euro load varies from 45-50gr for this powder so at 36.5 it might very well be the primer is simply too hot a burn for this powder and it caused a hot load even with a light powder charge.
    Of course, we all are trying to guess at this.
    That is, no one has come on and said: With Euro flake powder found in 8MM military loads when using a CCI #34 primer reduce load by blah blah etc etc.
    These primers are intended for ball powder, that I am sure of.
    How they work on other powders varies and so does other primers not only magnum.
    If anything it is interesting to consider the possibilities and even if you or I are wrong in a guess it is worth considering all avenues.
    The extreme shortage of primers (and if you don't think there is a real primer shortage you will shortly) has me looking for some alternatives. Hence this attempt into the unknown of #34
    If I have to develope a new load from scratch, so be it.
    I do hope someone has some experience with #34 and can pass it on and I do appreciate the suggestions by all.

    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    Wulfmann,

    I know it will be some bucks maybe but have you checked the headspace on the other rifle and the shoulder. I may have missed it but were the cases sized in the rifle bulging the primers or the rifle not bulging the primers?
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The cases were FL sized. I intended to shoot them in the VZ24 but after 3 rounds with buldging primers and it shooting so high I decided to check the round in a dou43 that is a good shooter and has the tightest 98 chamber I have.
    It shot them without buldging but shoot them 6 inches higher than the site.
    Anyway, I reloaded some at 35.5 35 and 34 gr and headed back to today. I first fired a 36.5 gr load to have a buldging primer as reference and then shot one of each of the others. The more reduced the load the flatter the primer.
    The 34 gr was the best but I will try 33, 32, 31 and 30.
    This is the scary part because these #34 are obviously much hotter so are increasing velocity but there is a point the load will get too light causing detonation.
    the point of the testing is to ascertain what primers will work with these primers and I do not have to use the powder with this load, I am just curious (and must remember the cat thing) if there is a load I can shoot.
    Bottom line, these primers are meant for powders like BLC-2 and not Euro flake.
    I can use this 34 gr load now but that is a hot load and I would have to put on a higher site or scope the gun and I don't want to do either.
    So, I either sell the primers or find some W846 to use them with.
    That and the fun of testing.
    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, maybe everyone lost interest but I will finish with the last test.
    I tried 33, 32 and 31g of Euro flake powder in the 8MM cases with CCI #34 military primers which say to use magnum data.
    But, there is not data for Euro flake that I am aware of and even if there were I would not be sure the Yugo 8MM loaded ammo was the same.
    Anyway, all three loads shot very well. The gun is a Romanian contract VZ-24 and the sights start at 300 meters. 32 grains is perfect for shooting at 100 yards with the sites at 300 so that is the load I will use.
    Ironically as I worried of damaging the gun or not being able to use these primers without buying new powder in the end I found a very nice shooting load I can use.
    Since I bought over 6,000 rounds of the Yugo ammo that is loaded with 50g and I reduce that to 36 it is easy to see I will have 6K x 14g available to use in boxer cases so this works out very well.
    It is always a bit scary to move into areas unknown with powders and I must remind anyone thinking along these lines to go no more than one grain at a time and 1/2 is even smarter.
    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    Wulfmann,

    Sorry, didn't lose interest. Thanks for the update though. Personally, though I'm having a tough time saying it was good in one rifle and not the other without it being a headspace problem. I guess we can all take a look new instances and learn something from it. Do you normally get the same velocities in both barrels with normal, higher pressure, loads?
  • WulfmannWulfmann Member Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    They are not the same rifle. The VZ grooves are different and the bore was counter sunk for snow. Plus the German dou43 (Czech made Kar98k) had 100 meter sights and a different site post.
    The fact it did not buldge the primer at 2 grains difference compared to where the VZ was flat is not at all uncommon in any comparison and is even possible with the same model. I have guns that are the same type and barrel and shoot different loads.
    But, yours is still a good question as one must stand back and consider any and all possibilities.
    Bottom line the Romaian contract VZ-24 is relegated to the cheaper components which now work great and I do not need to worry about a load for the dou43, my smoothest and most accurate Kar98k as it gets the best components, IMR 4895 Fed 210 primers etc
    The best shooter of all is a Czech factory refurb with a new barrel and bolt and it is getting a set of Mauser Banner roll off (Turret) mounts and a Seeadler scope 6X with #4 reticle.
    But, make no mistake that Romaian contract may be well worn but it is as smooth as silk and I am keeping that sucka!

    Wulfmann
    3YUCmbB.jpg
    "Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
    Otto von Bismarck
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