Filler for fast powders in large cases

gotstolefrom

Related to the 38/357 with Bullseye Powder post.

I had experienced the problems with the small volume / fast burning powders like Bullseye in 357 and 44spl cases. At the time (30 years ago) a fellow loader suggested that I use some filler after charging with the powder to keep it against the primer. The material (Kaypok I believe) looked like a fluffy synthetic cotton. It did help the groupings, and made loading with that powder possible, but I soon rejected it and went another route.

Last month I had picked up my brass and was 'resting' at the range and another member came by and we chatted for a while. We got on the topic of the fast powders in larger cases. He said he had used a powdered material called Cab-0-Sil with his fast powders that 'bulked them up'. He explained that this stuff must be 'intimately mixed' (his words) with your powder on about a 20% by volume basis. Since the filler is 'virtually weightless' (again his words), loading by weight was still OK and the mix produced a greater volume of propellant in the case.

I have found no reference to this stuff in reloading. Internet searches turned it up everywhere as a filler for epoxy bonding components. It is also listed as an inert filler used in ketchup and other food/sauce products.

Have I missed it somewhere or what ?

SW 357Mag

Never heard of it, but it sure sounds TASTY!


[:(]

BHAVIN

Seems weird as it has to weigh something and that will reduce your charge. If you are using H110 or W296 this could be an issue. Look at Hodgdon Titegroup. This powder was designed to not be position sensitive. You may not be able to get the hotter loads with it but it works well and for most pistol calibers. I recall a friend of mine using the fiber type filler but I can't think of the name of it.

gotstolefrom

BHAVIN
From one internet source of it sold as a food additive says a gallon volume weighs about 4 ounces (1/4 pound).

5 pounds (80 ounces) of Bullseye appears to be about a gallon volume by my eyeball. If my eyeball is remotely correct (calibrated to a 'C' cup), this stuff weighs 1/20 the weight of Bullseye. So I'll buy his statement of 'virtually weightless'.

BUT READ ON -- IT MADE MY DECISION


I just spoke with an Uncle who likes to shoot BP. He's retired Army, long ago, is a quiet man, and if pestered he just says " I worked Ordnance ".
He said roughly this to me about 15 minutes ago. " ... if you need boost you fluff it up, add some air, ...don't put that sht in your powder."
Thats good enough for me.

And the discussion is of a powder that is "too fast" for some applications anyway. The 'original discussion' was of a wad of fiber to take up space, not combine with the powder.

MIKE WISKEY

"(calibrated to a 'C' cup), "... personaly I like to calibrate to 4 decimal places (read 'D' cup), but that another story. as to fillers for large cases I have read that you should NEVER use synthetic fillers (kaypoc, ect.) as this turns to semi liquid under heat and pressure and has 'ringed' chambers in straigh walled cases from hydralic pressure at the base of the bullet. I've always had good results using regular cotton or cream of wheat.

dtknowles

Kaypoc is not a synthetic fiber and is good for the indicated use when reloading. It is a natural fiber, I believe from the Kaypoc Tree. Used as a filler in mattresses and life vests. More resistent to moisture than cotton. Cream of Wheat or Grits are good for this application as well. Cabosil is a glass like material, silica. This is probably not good for your bore. Not hazardous but will increase wear.

Tim

1KYDSTR

kapok is indeed a natural fiber from the Kapok tree native to South America...the fiber being garnered from the fibrous material that protects the nut inside it's shell. It has been used for years to this very end by old-time handloaders. The downside is that Kapok is not terribly cheap, and you NEVER find it on sale or special. I use cotton ball pieces if I want to fill the case a little better. Having said this, I don't do that much any more as everyone at the range complains about the "snow" that apears every time I pull the trigger on that 45-70...it's actually sorta' cool to see. but I understand the annoyance factor. What I have done in recent years is use magnum primers to better light the smaller powder charge. This seems to work well as long as the charge is not too light and has produced quite consistant velocities over the Chrono. Always remember to reduce charges about %15 from your normal load for that cartridge if going to Mag primers from standard..always a good practice when delving into the intangibles.

MIKE WISKEY

"Kaypoc is not a synthetic fiber and is good for the indicated use when reloading. It is a natural fiber)... OK, BUT WITH A NAME LIKE THAT I FIGURED IT HAD TO COME FROM A TEST TUBE[B)]. DACRON IS WHAT I WAS THINKING OF.

Hawk Carse

Like Will Rogers, all I know about case fillers is what I read in the newspapers, but here it goes.

One school of thought says that "a tuft of kapok (Dacron, cotton, hummingbird down) to hold the powder against the primer" gets a running jump at the base of the bullet. Then the tuft is the projectile and the bullet is the obstruction, which can cause enough of a pressure surge to ring-bulge the chamber. Not every time, but sometimes, and barrels aren't cheap. I have seen a picture of a chamber with multiple rings from trying the trick with different powder and bullet loads... until they roughened the chamber enough to prevent extraction.

Ross Seyfried said The Answer was to use a LOT of fibre filler, seven or eight grains, completely filling the airspace between powder and bullet. He trusts the method enough to use it in expensive express rifles.

Then there is the granular filler approach. A friend loads smokeless for his .450 BPE with Grex shot buffer as filler. Safely and successfully, thus far. It is light and takes up all the airspace. Cereal fillers like grits, Cream of Wheat, and corn meal also worked for him but are denser and have to be considered as adding to bullet weight. Lots of CAS shooters use them for reduced loads in cap & ball revolvers; just enough powder to make smoke and ding a plate without much recoil.

The British ammo makers, Eley and Kynoch, used cork wads over the powder of Nitro-for-black ammunition. No damage reported, supposedly because the cork crumbles when hit by powder ignition and does not hit the base of the bullet in a lump.

Me?
I don't use any of the above. I load my one black powder gun with black powder. Light loads in smokeless powder rifles get the muzzle raised before each shot. Pistol ammo doesn't seem to care, but I am not a 2600 bullseye shooter.

jonk

For pistols I don't think it is needed with Bullseye.

Occasionally for light loads in rifles I use a filler. I only use Pufflon lubricating ballistic filler as it is the only one proven to flow without raising pressure, i.e. won't cause a chamber ring. For straight walled rounds though Kapok is fine, as is cotton, toilet paper, cream of wheat, etc. The Pufflon, even in sharply bottlenecked rounds, is billed as safe though and I am quite happy with it. It also acts as an excellant gas seal.

637e

Gentlemen ,I'm far from an expert on this subject , but I do shoot "reduced" smokeless powder loads in black powder cartridges .(.28-30 .32Ideal and .25-21). An ooold geezer (79 years old ), taught me to cut florist's styrofoam , into 5/16 inch thick slabs,then just push your charged case thru the slab.Then gently push the filler against the powder charge with a piece of dowel rod . Then seat the bullet. No muss--no fuss ! Damned thing works for me !! Inch and a half groups from my 100 year old .28-30 .I understand these are "reduced" loads ,so you might not want to be cranking up handgun loads with method ! 637e

n4571c

Used Kapok for years. To fill space in target loads to control burn. In very light loads for safety against detonation. Cheap source was old life jackets.