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7.92mm 198gr FMJ-BT accuracy ?
Spitzgeschoss
Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
Hello everyone
Has anyone here tried long range shooting with the German 7.92mm 198gr FMJ-BT bullet ? If so, what did you acgieve in terms of accuracy and what setup did you use - sight, scope, powder charge etc etc.. ? According to tests the BC of the 198gr sS projectile is a high .580 and sectional density is high as-well, which makes it great for long range work, so I'd suspect accuracy to be very good as-well.
Best regards,
SpitzGeschoss
Has anyone here tried long range shooting with the German 7.92mm 198gr FMJ-BT bullet ? If so, what did you acgieve in terms of accuracy and what setup did you use - sight, scope, powder charge etc etc.. ? According to tests the BC of the 198gr sS projectile is a high .580 and sectional density is high as-well, which makes it great for long range work, so I'd suspect accuracy to be very good as-well.
Best regards,
SpitzGeschoss
Comments
It seems accurate enough for me.
That is a very inherently accurate long range load. I've shot just about every kind of 8mm and that is about as good as it gets. My best shooting with came from a nearly new Yugo M48BO(slightly customized) putting five shots into a .448 group. The same lot with the same rifle produced a 2.347" group at 300 yds. If you handload with these Sierra makes a very accurate bullet. It doesn't have as high BC but again, very accurate. -Good luck
I would not recommend the Mitchell's Mauser. they are cleaned up forged Russian capture guns and not necessarily accurate.
I would suggest buying a Russian capture and a new barrel in 8MM if you want sure replica sniper. I have bought a number of RC Kar98k and two of the most accurate I had made into replica snipers. Very sweet, a lot of work and hassle. If you do not insist on making a true replica the Mauser Banner rolloff mounts are fabulous. They are basically a modern turret design and can take either one inch or 26MM scope tubes. They allow the scope to be removed and remounted with a return to zero like the WWII designs.
PA Distributing has them. I have bought 7 of them which kind of indicates I like them, LOL
http://www.p-a-distributing.com/mounts.html
Cole distributing has the replica Long side rail WWII mounts and replica Zielvier scopes that Mitchell uses to make those $3k snipers. They run $600.00 for both. Click accessories and go to page 5 to see them
http://www.coledistributing.com/
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
The reason for my question is that I plan to build an entirely new rifle, stock, barrel etc etc, chambered in the 7.92x57mm IS mauser round. The plan is to use the old and already flawless Mauser 98 action and a new thick cold hammered steel precision barrel in the caliber 7.92mm. The scope will be a high powered Schmidt & Bender or Zeiss telescope with the necessary features, the two best manufactures of telescopic sights in the world.
My goal is to show what I already know, that the 7.92x57mm round will beat the living daylight out of the .308 Win and 30.06 at long range precision shooting and that its a shame it hasn't been manufactured to full specs and with a better selection of bullets by todays ammunition companies. Currently only S&B offers a 196gr FMJ-BT bullet for the 8x57IS Mauser, however they could be made much better. A 198gr FMJ-BT bullet made after the exact same specifications as the German sS bullet will make available to the public an extremely accurate rifle bullet for the guns chambered in the 8x57mm JS Mauser.
Currently the US marines are using the M40A3 chambered in the .308 Win as their std. sniper arm, its a very accurate rifle however the 7.62mm 175gr FMJ-BT M118LR bullet has some issues with stability at longer ranges - the 7.92mm 198gr FMJ-BT bullet does not, and it will also happily engage targets at even longer ranges than 900 yards by virtue of its higher possible muzzle velocity provided by the old and trusty 8x57mm IS Mauser cartridge.
[:)]
I'm right with you on that one. I started going down the road you just explained exactly...right after I got my first Mauser back in '92. Amazing rounds are the Mausers. Don't forget that the 30-06 is based on the Mauser case...and the .308 on the 30-06!
If'n you want to look at some outstanding ballistics though you may also want to look at one of Paul Mausers other creations and that is the 7x57. I shoot one using 168 Bergers pushed out to 2660 out of my long barrel. the reason I went with the 7mm is I a). had always known they had great combination of weight and ballistics and most importantly b). found out by doing research that the Spanish BEGAN engaging American troops at the the battle of San Juan hill at 2000m(2200 yds). Granted it was easier shooting as the Americans were all bunched up in troop formation just like the civil war. But nothing we had could touch them at the extended distances. Except of course a couple of Gatling guns chambered in 7x57. The reason we won that battle was simply overpowering numbers. That battle changed the rifle we used and direction America went with firearms.
Now, the above dissertation is not meant to dissuade you from this project. I hope you complete this project AS SOON AS POSSIBLE so as to see the rewards of your work. And in truth see for yourself what history has acknowledged and what it(we) have forgotten. -good luck, and for sure if you have any questions...ask here in this forum. You will find many helpful people.
Edit:
Spitzgeschoss,
Another side note to this story. For what ever reason in the history of sniping the Germans never took this round to it's max potential. They literally had the best glass, the best rifle, and the best bullet for sniping of any major contender in either WWI or WWII. Yet they remained steadfast in their approach that mostly maximum engagement was 400m. 500 maybe 600 if the conditions were right. They wreaked havoc in WWI(they used the 150 gr. bullet then)in the trenches and from 'no mans land'. Two significant sniper operations were the hedgerows of Normandy and the counter-snipers brought in to fight the snipers the Russians were so effectively employing. Even when they lost each conflict both had serious consequences on the Allied forces fighting them. I just hope this tidbit helps spur you on with this project.
Don't worry this forum will be the first place where I will present my finished work, however my work starts on something different - acquiring a good amount of German sS ball ammo. When this is done I'll pull the sS projectiles out of their casings, polish them gently to remove any little corrosion that might have formed on them - and I mean LITTLE! German surplus ammo is VERY clean eventhough its over 60 years old - once that is done I'll, being the perfectionist that I am, remeasure the bullets to ensure they're perfect (Which they ofcourse will be)
Now some might say this is a waste of good German surplus ammunition and that it would be smarter to reproduce it - however reproducing the sS projectile requires a good deal of funding, and why do it yourself if you by showing the ammunition companies what amazing potential the 8x57mm Mauser possesses can drive them to mass produce the projectile world wide instead ?
In a lot of ways I have to agree with you about the ability of this round. What I have very little faith in is marketing of large companies. They are very set in selling us what they want to make and not what may or may not be better...EVEN WHEN WE SCREAM FOR IT! (there I maybe vented for both of us).
Time and again certain groups will kind of graduate to one thing or another. What do the big companies do? They produce something that is one off. They claim liability or patent infringement or whatever, but I've hardly yet gotten to meet my own needs with what a firearms manufacturer produces for rifle and ammunition combined with an easy option to put the bases and rings I want on there to scope it.
Were I you, I wouldn't hesitate with this project to get it going. A resurgence in 8mm is unlikely but may happen. Search around for custom bullet makers. Some are really spendy, some not unreasonable. This will be your long term source. Remember, it won't just be you buying this stuff, it will be the shooting public. And if the public doesn't see what a great round the 8mm Mauser is they won't go and buy them. something you mentioned in your first post about stability. Everyone who has shot seriously understands ballistics and that there are far better rounds than the .308 for it. But until John Q. Public gets the word we will be stuck with .308. They kind of get it because the 6.5x55 has seen a resurgence in ling range shooting. (because of the 6.5-.284) But I hope they really understand that back in the manufacturers circle.
Hi SandWarrior
Don't worry this forum will be the first place where I will present my finished work, however my work starts on something different - acquiring a good amount of German sS ball ammo. When this is done I'll pull the sS projectiles out of their casings, polish them gently to remove any little corrosion that might have formed on them - and I mean LITTLE! German surplus ammo is VERY clean eventhough its over 60 years old - once that is done I'll, being the perfectionist that I am, remeasure the bullets to ensure they're perfect (Which they ofcourse will be)
Now some might say this is a waste of good German surplus ammunition and that it would be smarter to reproduce it - however reproducing the sS projectile requires a good deal of funding, and why do it yourself if you by showing the ammunition companies what amazing potential the 8x57mm Mauser possesses can drive them to mass produce the projectile world wide instead ?
Do you have any dimensional drawings of this particular bullet. I would think if the potential for accuracy and ballistic efficiency were that much better the bench rest and long range shooters crowd would have found it by now. They seek the most from the ammo and gun combinations they shoot. Any little advantage would be received with open arms.
What is so magic about this particular bullet? is the ogive, driving band and base configuration something the shooting world has not seen since the days of WWII?
I shoot a 8MM Yugo Mauser a lot with surplus ammo. It seem to be very little difference between it and the 30-06.
Am I missing out on something?
There has to be something about the way we make bullets here in the U.S. I've shot '30's made 7.65 Argentine and it outperforms 30-06 in long range. I've shot 7.5 Swiss and it outperforms the 30-06 in long range. I've loaded and shot PRVI Partisan 174 gr. in .311 out of my 1909's and they just rock. When I load the 175 SMK's into my 30-06 with higher velocity the others catch it anywhere from 400-600 yds. The 175 SMK's are accurate, but literally they seem blunt compared to the 174's. Now, the 174's don't come close to catching a Berger. but Berger's are clearly designed differently than SMK's and Hornady match type bullets. I have to include my Nosler Custom Competitions 168 gr. bullets that my 7.5 likes so well. They lose a lot of oomph downrange compared to the original 7.5 and the PRVI's in .311
Bpost1958,
There has to be something about the way we make bullets here in the U.S. I've shot '30's made 7.65 Argentine and it outperforms 30-06 in long range. I've shot 7.5 Swiss and it outperforms the 30-06 in long range. I've loaded and shot PRVI Partisan 174 gr. in .311 out of my 1909's and they just rock. When I load the 175 SMK's into my 30-06 with higher velocity the others catch it anywhere from 400-600 yds. The 175 SMK's are accurate, but literally they seem blunt compared to the 174's. Now, the 174's don't come close to catching a Berger. but Berger's are clearly designed differently than SMK's and Hornady match type bullets. I have to include my Nosler Custom Competitions 168 gr. bullets that my 7.5 likes so well. They lose a lot of oomph downrange compared to the original 7.5 and the PRVI's in .311
Can that extra steam possibly be attributed to pressures being in the "Oh my Lord" range? I know some military ammo is way up there in the pressure area. Or; do you think the bullet design was just that much better?
I ran through some of my notes on the Mauser factory loadings and a little on the bullet designs then took a look at some other information on the web. There was an incredible amount of work that went into the design of bullet as well as the cartridge, powders and primers.
The powders ranged from subsonic through normal velocity, up to the hyper velocity or high energy powders. The high energy powder helps answer the question of where did that extra velocity come from. This was a load developed for the air force which also found its way into the hands of some of the 'sniper troops' who were looking for some additional yardage. I suggest that this is reason for the snappier loads that get reported by some shooters. Surplus suppliers certainly aren't going to waste their time sorting ammunition when they could be pushing it out the door by the pallet load. By the way, there has to be an increase in operating pressure simply due to the laws of physics and you might be surprised by the peak pressure.
The bullet design was fairly far ahead of its time. When I run the dimensions through a simple design program for analysis the parameters seem to most closely approximate a very long tangent ogive combined with a boattail having an angle of about 7 degrees. While most folks may not be impressed, it wasn't until just a few years ago that the rest of the world was able to solve some of the manufacturing and stability problems brought on by bullets using these constraints. The two suppliers that have gotten this far are using some special techniques and monolithic metal to achieve what is very difficult to overcome with traditional cup and core manufacturing. There is one jacketed bullet that is almost a dead ringer for the Mauser design. It's an FMJBT at 198 gr. with a boattail angle of 6.8 degrees and a BC of 0.550 approximately. I'm just having a hard time locating the company again.
Anyway, carry on with your dream but remember that Americans have routinely rejected metric bullets and cases out of hand. It has only been recently that we have made inroads into the metrics here with the propagation of the 6.5 x 284.
Here is some of the information:
In 7.92mm caliber, the Germans had many military round versions, and they never stopped development of different variations until World War II was officially over. The bullet lengths varied a great deal through the different types, but all were loaded to an overall length of 80.5 mm (3.169 in). The Germans had started using steel cases in World War I, and by the end of 1943, most German ammunition had that type of case.
"The German standard sS (schweres Spitzgescho?/heavy pointed bullet) ball bullet was 35mm long (1.378 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made. It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed about 12.8 grams (197 grains). It offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and ballistic performance of all standard rifle balls used in World War II with a ballistic coefficient (G1 BC) of 0.557 to 0.584 (ballistic coefficients are somewhat debatable). At 760 m/s (2493 ft/s) muzzle velocity the standard sS ball bullet retained supersonic velocity up to 800 m (875 yards) (V800 #8776; Mach 1.17) under ICAO Standard Atmosphere conditions at sea level (air density #961; = 1.225 kg/m3). Even by contemporary (2007) standards 800 m (875 yards) typical effective range is quite remarkable for a standard military rifle round.
German Luftwaffe (Air force) 7.92mm high velocity machinegun ammunition loaded with the 12.8 grams (197 grains) sS ball bullets reached a muzzle velocity of 840 m/s (2756 ft/s) due to a more powerful smokeless powder charge. The regular German infantry units were not allowed to use this round; however German snipers sometimes used this high velocity round to gain an extra 150 m (164 yards) effective range.
German tracer bullets were the best put out by any country - beautifully streamlined and with excellent ballistics. German armor piercers were also very good, being very stable and accurate at long ranges. The most common type of armor piercer had a hardened-steel core with plated-steel jacket and weighed 11.5 grams (178 grains). Other types appeared which used tungsten carbide and combinations for cores. Sintered iron and mild steel cores also came into use in ball ammunition.
The HE incendiary, called the observation bullet by the Germans, had a pellet in it which exploded on contact with any target, however frail. The Germans maintained that it was used mainly for observation and range-finding, but observers report having seen them in rifle clips and machine gun belts."
Several conventional munition types have been produced in a version "verbessert" (improved) on which the nitrocellulose was replaced by a more powerful element, the Nitro-Penta. These cartridges are of high-velocity type for maximum performance in aircraft machine guns and give higher pressure than other 7,9 mm rounds. (These are not recommended for use in rifles)
Manufacture quantities altogether (8x57IS):
1939: 880,5 millions
1940: 2259,4 millions
1941: 464,0 millions
1942: 317,6 millions
1943: 2200,1 millions
1944: 3862,3 millions
March 1945: 491,7 millions
I've got pictures of the original German dimensional specifications for the sS bullet and lots more - the PmK, SmK, SmKH etc etc (Just ask if you want any)
sS bullet dimensions:
The reason German snipers didn't usually engage before 600m was simply because this was within the 100% hit possibility zone for experienced snipers. You've got to remember that most snipers back then carried 4x magnification scopes, and these were only good up to 600m - the 6x scopes some snipers had were good to about 800m, and a good sniper could consistently achieve deadly accurate hits at a chest sized target at this range. Also snipers often did not have a chance to shoot at their enemy from 800m away, most of the time they were closer - However when possible long range anti personal enagements were carried out quite often by the Scharfsch?tzen, out beyond 1200m, however this was mostly to show the enemy that they couldn't feel safe even at this range - which indeed they sometimes couldn't. There were snipers out there who many times succesfully did engage at extreme long range, some equipped with the more rare 8x Zielacht Dialytan & Zeiss scopes, one of which is also used by a fictional German expert sniper in the movie "Enemy at the Gates". With this scope a sniper could successfully engage targets beyond 800m with a good possibility of a hit.
Major K?nig with Zielacht scope in Enemy at the Gates:
8x Dialytan & Zeiss scopes:
Thanks for posting the wonderful history behind some of the equipment used by the Germans. They sure had very well engineered equipment.
I am going to look further into the sS bullet design. It looks intresting.
Thanks for the outstanding history and dimensions on this round. I've known about this bullet for a while and always felt that the original form would be awesome if brought back. I have had the chance to shoot it with open sights out to 400m and it was good then. I imagine it would be as good as anything out there with a scope and fine tuned rifle.
Here are some cut-aways of the various rounds in the 7.92mm caliber used by the Germans:
And here the external view of a few of the different 7.92mm rounds used by the Germans - left to right = SmK, V-sS, V-SmK(L'sp), V-B-Patronen, V-B-Patronen (Tropic), B-patronen (Tropic), heavy FMJ-BT bullet (220 gr), WWI round nosed FMJ bullet, HolzGeschoss (wooden bullet), SmK 7.92 Kurz bullet (Stg.44):
Another something to know;
Much of today's army snipers training is infact based on the WWII German scharfsch?tzen training program, with things such as tactics, breathing techniques, concealment & stabil body platform techniques for accurate shooting being used by army snipers around the world today.
A picture of a Scharfsch?tzen making a stabile shooting platform out of his own body:
I could add one little thing on German snipers. They shot at 400 or less not because they could not make kills at greater ranges, they could not identify selected targets at longer ranges and their job was to take out the one guy that would reduce the enemy's leadership most with that one hit.
Those of us that shoot K98k and German 4x glass can attest we are able to hit man sized targets at 800. But, if you put ten targets and added captains bars to one we would not know which one that was until under 400.
I have about 800 of the German bullets left but I am saving them.
For what? Just because they are hard to find and they are the best (although the Sierra 200gr group better at shorter ranges)
Wulfmann
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
Wulfman, yes the reason most shooting was done within 600m was also partly because of accurate identification problems beyond that range - but at 600m a positive identification could mostly be made by the German sniper-teams, the spotter equipped with either 6,7,8,10 or even 12x binoculars. The std. magnification binocular for a German spotter was 10x, in which case a positive identification at 600m was mostly possible.
Excellent post! As noted, I had read many times that the German snipers didn't normally take shots longer than 400m but never given a specific reason. That kind of clears it up specifically as to why they didn't.
I was always aware that key individuals were to be taken first if possible. I just never realized that we all looked so alike and that unless positive ID was made no shot was attempted. Quite different from our policy of "shoot the best you can see" or the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong theory of shooting anyone they saw and using that as a demoralizing factor. I am talking general operations not specific operations where a specific target has been ID'd.
Makes you wonder then if in the movie Saving Private Ryan that the German sniper would have even taken the shot let alone be up in the bell tower...if the choice was his. Interesting and thanks again.