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RCBS dies. Crooked bullet seating. Why?
RadCat
Member Posts: 680 ✭✭✭✭
I have been loading for quite a while now, and enjoy it very much.
Recently I have been loading quite a few 9mm. cases for use in IPSC competition. I know that 9mm is cheap enough for factory loads, but I shoot in Open Class and need loads not available from the factory.
Accuracy is very important when you are shooting fast. That's where I am getting frustrated. Too many "flyers" from crooked bullets.
I have fed the bullets being seated by hand, placed between my fingers right into a properly "belled" case, as straight as I can see them. I have also fed them with the automatic Lee bullet feeder that holds them straighter than I can. I took the "seater plug" and re-shaped it in my lathe to closely match the bullets shape (JHP).
When I spin/roll the finished cartridges in a flat table a lot of them "wobble" as they roll.
RCBS are the only dies I have in 9mm. Has any one noted a similar problem with this or any other dies in this caliber?
Prior to this I had a similar problem with loading .357 Sig, but those have a bottle-neck case, and the problem was not as bad. Both times the dies were RCBS.
Any ideas or solutions, other than getting a different brand dies set?
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Recently I have been loading quite a few 9mm. cases for use in IPSC competition. I know that 9mm is cheap enough for factory loads, but I shoot in Open Class and need loads not available from the factory.
Accuracy is very important when you are shooting fast. That's where I am getting frustrated. Too many "flyers" from crooked bullets.
I have fed the bullets being seated by hand, placed between my fingers right into a properly "belled" case, as straight as I can see them. I have also fed them with the automatic Lee bullet feeder that holds them straighter than I can. I took the "seater plug" and re-shaped it in my lathe to closely match the bullets shape (JHP).
When I spin/roll the finished cartridges in a flat table a lot of them "wobble" as they roll.
RCBS are the only dies I have in 9mm. Has any one noted a similar problem with this or any other dies in this caliber?
Prior to this I had a similar problem with loading .357 Sig, but those have a bottle-neck case, and the problem was not as bad. Both times the dies were RCBS.
Any ideas or solutions, other than getting a different brand dies set?
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Comments
Brand? and Weight?
Also have you tried another set of dies to make sure your dies are not screwed up?
Also during load testing are you firing from sand bags or whatever to make sure the loads are shooting consistantly? Chrono them?
What kind of groups are you getting during load testing?
No, I have not tried a different brand set. I am trying to assume is not the dies. I have "miked" the dies, and they are concentric, but have not compared their specs to another set of dies of the same or different brand.
These loads have been chronographed at between 1350fps to 1475fps. (These are compressed loads with slow burning powder using small rifle primers and exceeding SAAMI pressures) Their speeds are consistent within their weight groups. When I roll/spin them (finished loads) and select the "perfect" ones they consistently group ten rounds within one half inch at twenty five yards in a pistol rest. But when I just grab them from the "bin" and mix some crooked ones, then I have no idea where they will end, sometimes miss the target completely.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.
NRA Life Endowment Member
Are they true jacketed bullets, or are they the heavy plated bullets like berry's and ranier? I have trouble getting accuracy with the heavy plated bullets over about 1150 fps. On recovered bullets from water you can see where the rifleing cuts the jacket one one side and causes a parachute effect. I get flyers about 12" out in a ring at 25 yards. below 1150 they shoot a 2" group.
My border collie is smarter than your honor student.
Zero Bullets and Star Mfg. Bullets are not plated and have a complete jacket cover including the bullet base. I do not use the regular round nose FMJ bullets because they have the lead "exposed" bases which vaporize somewhat (although minor) when loaded this hot. I have used Rainier and Berry Mfg. but only in .40 cal or .45 ACP in more civilized loads.
I would like to use the "Montana Gold" bullets, but shipping is expensive, and, I'm trying to find an affordable local (South Florida) source.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
One little trick is use and It might help you. When I seat bullets, I press them in just to get them started then rotate the brass about 1/3 turn then press a little more etc. till seated. Oops forgot you have a progressive right?
NRA Life Endowment Member
Yup! I have a "maximum" progressive! If I was loading only a few boxes for maximum accuracy I would use "MY" old Rockchucker too!! [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
But multiply that to at least 500 rounds per seating, and you will grow roots in your "*" with the single stage while doing it.[:D][;)][8]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Have you tried rolling the bullets before loading to make sure they are not out of shape prior to loading?
Also I would try another set of dies.
I can only two things that would cause your bullets to go crooked. One: Bullets are crooked to begin with.
Two: Seating die is messed up.
What press are you using?
Hmm,
Have you tried rolling the bullets before loading to make sure they are not out of shape prior to loading?
Also I would try another set of dies.
I can only two things that would cause your bullets to go crooked. One: Bullets are crooked to begin with.
Two: Seating die is messed up.
What press are you using?
It would stagger my b u t t if I had to spin each individual bullet in the numbers I load. I trust the quality of the bullets I use, they are only affordable because of the bulk purchases.
It is possible the RCBS die is the culprit. I don't know. Hate to point fingers at such a well made and known company without at least checking to see if others had similar experiences.
As for the press, it is a Dillon 650 XL. I also have a Lee Loadmaster, but have not tried it in that one yet.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Hard one to figure out because if it is a mechanical failure with the die each bullet would be crooked.
I would start with the die itself since its the cheapest and just do a complete overhaul on the press. See if there something jamming it up once in a while.
Dillon is good to go.
Hard one to figure out because if it is a mechanical failure with the die each bullet would be crooked.
I would start with the die itself since its the cheapest and just do a complete overhaul on the press. See if there something jamming it up once in a while.
You have made a very good point. I have loaded many thousands of bullets in the six years or so since new in that Dillon press. Maybe I should give the Dillon people a call. They are well known for their phone assistance. When the press was new I had a minor "understanding" problem and they put me on the right track.
And, it would be cheaper than outright buying another set of dies, though it may come to that eventually. I just don't want to buy another set un-necessarily.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
I have a set of Lee Carbide dies in 9mm I can loan you to see if it is the dies going out on you or the press.
I would take about 100 of those bullets and roll them to see how consistant they are.
Let me know about the dies.
But one thing to look at is if the brass is being formed like (The right side of the pic) insted of the left? just befor you seat the bullet.
NRA Life Endowment Member
RadCat,
I have a set of Lee Carbide dies in 9mm I can loan you to see if it is the dies going out on you or the press.
I would take about 100 of those bullets and roll them to see how consistant they are.
Let me know about the dies.
Thanks for the offer. I will make a note of it. Greatly appreciate it. Are you in Florida (Broward/Dade counties) by any chance? The only die I would probably need is the seating die.
But first I want to talk to the Dillon people. I do wonder about the Dillon supplied "belling" die, which also doubles as the powder funnel conduit, and slides up and down the body of the powder measure assembly. Sometimes it sticks a bit inside the cases after "belling and filling the powder" in the cases. Maybe is not opening/shaping the bell/cases evenly in preparation for the bullet positioning prior to seating. What do you think?
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
I might be way off, and know that you have been reloading a long time
But one thing to look at is if the brass is being formed like (The right side of the pic) insted of the left? just befor you seat the bullet.
NRA Life Endowment Member
Your post just crossed my last one. This is what just occured to me too, and meant about the "belling" die. Definetely need to check that. This could mean a problem with the Dillon supplied equipment. I think you might be in the right rack with this. Need to check it...
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
That is the only thing I can think of, I Have some dies for my 45-120-3 1/4" And does the same. on a big bore strait wall case its real noticable.
NRA Life Endowment Member
quote:I do wonder about the Dillon supplied "belling" die,
That is the only thing I can think of, I Have some dies for my 45-120-3 1/4" And does the same. on a big bore strait wall case its real noticable.
NRA Life Endowment Member
That is true. Unlike other brands, the Dillon belling/powder filling dies go deep inside the case "before" the belling effect takes place, and if it goes in at a slight tangent it could miss-shape the case reulting in a crooked cartridge. I have another powder measure assembly with a new die "body" assembly. It rides in a nylon bushing. Who knows? That could be the culprit? Thanks.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Sorry buddy, I am all the way on the other side of the world, CA, but always willing to help a fellow shooter out.[:D]
RadCat,
Sorry buddy, I am all the way on the other side of the world, CA, but always willing to help a fellow shooter out.[:D]
[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D] Thanks.
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
In trying to track down your problem, there is one thing that has not been covered. The bullet seating stem in the die. These are made in several different shapes. Some fit semi wad cutters, some fit round nose, etc. If your bullet does not fit the nose punch properly, it will force the bullet into the case crooked. a dirty nose punch will also do the same thing. I had the same problem with some 45 acp ammo. Changed the nose punch, and it solved almost everything!!
Good Luck,[:D]
Wayne
Could you make a nose punch that holds and acts as a guide for the hollow point of your bullets? If the seating die is the cause, holding the bullet square may solve the problem. If you taper crimp make sure that die is not to blame, it may be out of round and squeezing the bullet so it squirts to one side as it adds pressure.
The problem was traced primarily to a defect/wear in the mouth belling guide of the Dillon powder funnel/belling die body. A nylon bushing was dislodged, allowing uneven entry into the case as it was belled.
Chuck - Most of the cases are either Winchester once fired or Speer/nickel once fired. While the cases are pretty much filled the powder compression is minimal and even, and there is no OAL variation due to compression. I do not re-load them again, although they sample fine, they are cheap enough. I have gotten used to "rolling" them after finished to make sure no "wobblies" get into my matches, and use the wobblies for testing and practice.
Pipe Doc- Thanks. I always take out the bullet punch and reshape it in a metal lathe to match as close as possible the bullet shape and concentricity. But I do wish there was not so much space between the bullet and the die "guiding" inside walls. Of course when you load the bullets "long" things change a little bit too as there is less case bullet support, so you must crimp them a lttle more firmly without deforming the bullets.
bpost 1958- I only wish I could do what you suggest. If a seater punch/stem could be made that would act as a center guide to maintain the bullet centered through the "hollow point" as it's been seated that would be a big help, (Especially with the .357 Sig, but that's another story) but most bullets are guided or rectified by friction with the ogive of the bullets and the shape or "pre"-shape of the case mouth. I allways use Lee Factory Carbide Crimp dies, which apply a uniform crimp with a firmness adjusted to my taste, and rectify any outer "mis-shaping", but cannot rectify a crookedly inserted/seated bullet.
So things are working better now, thank goodness. Hopefully I won't have to roll as many in the future. [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
disclaimer since I don't know very much about lathes this maybe a crazy idea [:D][:D][:D] but thought I would throw it out there
Radcat since you have a lathe couldn't you make you own seating stem? start off with a over sized rod, doing the end that would be in contact with the bullet , but leaving a punch in the center of the cup that would fit into the hollow point, then turn the whole thing down to the right dia. and thread it ?
disclaimer since I don't know very much about lathes this maybe a crazy idea [:D][:D][:D] but thought I would throw it out there
I thought about it, but don't like it. Thing is, most JHP bullets have slightly different shapes in the "hollow point". JHP bullets are usually made of soft swaged lead wire, (before the jacket is formed) and applying any "steering" sideways pressure might end up distorting the bullet's shape and concentricity from bullet to bullet, possibly making them worse. I usually drill a pilot hole in the center of the stem/punch (the opposite of what you suggest) to avoid the possible distorting of the "hollow point" area. Although, shaping a reverse elipsis center stem might do the trick without much distortion, or at least evenning out such distortion, especially in "Star Mfg." bullets. In order for this to work you would have to start the positioning from the absolute center tip and progress downwards, centrically, and if the center tip is too long then you would have problems. And if too short it would be useless.
Still looking for the better mouse-trap... [:D][:D][:D][8D][8D]
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"If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at.