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167 gr. Scenars
sandwarrior
Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
I just got hold of some 167 gr. Lapua Scenars(.308). Anyone ever reload any of these before and how did they do accuracy wise?
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Comments
This range of Match bullets, 167/168 grain, are usually designed to perform at the 100, 200, 300 meter ranges for competitions. They are not the choice for longer ranges such as the 1,000 benchrest, Palma or F-class. I have used them out to the 600 yard line with fine results but I have found better performers beyond 300 meters. The best aspect of Lapua's bullets is the consistancy of manufacturing. When you measure these bullets from the ogive to the base, they are extremely consistant, much better than the average Match bullets. Lapua advertises 12mm at 300 meters or about 1/2" (0.472") for 5 shots.
"The Lapua Scenar hollow point boat tail bullet provides low drag and a superb ballistic coefficient. These bullets deliver superb performance at long ranges and benchrest shooting. For example, they have yielded 5 shot groups as tight as 12 mm at 300 meter. All Scenar bullets are also available in a coated Silver Jacket version."
This link will take you to a .pdf which contains some ballistic information at the bottom of the page. The top section is in metric while the bottom is in English units. It doesn't copy well onto this forum format.
http://www.lapua.com/Aficionado_plus.pdf
These bullets will work with the same Match loads as the Sierra 168 MK, just start a pinch low and work up as usually prescribed for all new loads. There are literally hundreds of loads out there.
Powders to use:
AA 2520
V V N-540 and N-150
Ramshot Big game
Norma N-203b
IMR-4895, 4064, 3031
Hodgdon 4895 and Varget
Reloader Re-15
http://www.benchrest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2212.html (bottom entry)
http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_bw.asp?CaliberID=57&BulletWeight=167
http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=57
Thanks for the information. I started with some XMR2015 for the first 20 experimental rounds. I haven't shot them yet.
You noted they were using N540 for some of the .308 loads. Do you think the N140 would work also? I have used it in my lighter 7X57 loads and mid range .257 Roberts Loads. The reason I ask is I was thinking of also using it with 155 Palma's. I wasn't sure if it would generate enough pressure to stay up with the N540 with bullets above 140 grs.
I have already used IMR4895, H4895, Varget, IMR4064, AA4064, AA2495, and RE-15 with Sierra and Nosler 168's. They all worked pretty good but haven't found that magic load yet.
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Most assuredly, V V N-140 will work with both the 167 Scenars and the 155 Palmas. It will keep pace with the N-540 and it is just a bit more efficient.
What sort of 'magic load' are you looking for? What are you trying to get to work that hasn't quite made it yet?
My current loads are mostly using IMR-3031/ Norma N-203b/ AA-2520. These will all work in short or long barrels depending on the distance that I'm working on.
I'm getting ready to start the process all over when I convert a couple of competition rifles to polygonal rifling. It should be interesting to compare the loads to conventional cut rifling when I'm done.
Let me know where you're trying to get to and maybe I have some notes.
Best.
Also in your other posts you have mentioned that both the Sierra and Lapua 168/167 gr. aren't 1000 yd. accuracy bullets. Do you use a different caliber or a different bullet? I know the Palma's are made for 1000 yd. Unfortunately, my trip to Nevada was kiboshed this past ten days and was only able to do some testing of my rounds on the 300 yd. range here in MN so trying them @ 1000 yd. was a bust.
Anyhow it could be the rifle or the scope or me....so I'll keep working on it. I very much appreciate your input.
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Let's see if we can't put some logic to this problem and get you going with some good accuracy!
Bullets:
If you call Sierra and ask about the 167/168 gr. range of bullets, they will tell you that these bullets are made for 300 yard/meter target shooting.
The 155 gr. Palma bullet is created for the International Palma competitions for targets out to 1,000 yards. I think that Federal still is the manufacturer of record for International competitions. They supply the ammunition and everyone is on the same level playing field because they all shoot the same ammunition.
The difference with this bullet/load is that most competitors use a smaller diameter bore/groove relationship from what is 'normal' for .308 Win. for better performance at longer ranges. The bearing surface of the 155's is relatively short so the tighter bore/groove gets a better 'grip' on this bullet.
308 Win. = 0.300" bore/ 0.308" groove
155 Palma = 0.298" bore/ 0.3065", 0.307", 0.3075" groove (Krieger)
I and many others have shot the Hornady AMAX's will good results so I don't see these as a problem at all. My preference is for some of the custom bullets like JLK, Cauteruccio, BIB, Chism and even some Bergers but the Hornady's should perform.
Powders:
Every one that you named should work for the velocity and consistancy that you mention. Palma/ F-Class shooters are using Varget, IMR-4064, Re-15 and V V N-140.
Barrels:
Long range shooters are using custom made long barrels. These are meticulously crafted by the best professionals in the market. There is a big difference between these barrels and what comes on a factory rifle. You need to check your chamber for straightness and length then check the crown for even the tiniest of faults and the bore for smoothness.
Scopes:
Here is where I can see a potential for inconsistancy. Please don't take offense. The Springfield Armory scopes are not known for the extreme high quality and consistancy of manufacturer that other scopes have. I would pull this scope off and put another known quality one on and see if that makes a difference. This is of course after checking out the barrel and any other variables like loose screws or mounts. This is one of the two places I see a possibility of needing a change.
Primers:
Believe it or don't, primers can have a fairly large effect on consistancy at any ranges let alone longer ranges. I found this out long ago much to my chagrin... Check all of the other stuff first then if all else fails, try substituting primers. CCI BR, Federal Match and even Winchesters are all used in competition.
I am using custom barrels with custom length chambers (throats/angles) coupled with custom heavier bullets for a lot of my shooting especially with the 308's. Like I said above, AMAX's are good and should shoot just fine. I'm also going to shoot some flat base bullets by Randy Robinette; 187 gr. BIB's. This should be quite an eye opener considering that I shoot more boat tails than anything else at longer ranges.
The last parting thought would be to make absolutely sure that your barrel is scrupulously clean. The area directly in front of the throat and the last few inches at the muzzle are likely problems. If necessary, take it to someone and have it borescoped. This shouldn't be required but it helps put some minds at ease.
I know that Nevada is warm but there are 1,000 yard ranges closer to you. Outside of Des Moines is a range that is hosting 1,000 yard and 1 mile shoots. There is at least 1 Palma range over in Wisconsin. If you would like information let me know.
Check out your rifle and post again if you want.
Best.
Thanks for sharing that info. I'll break down and take my leupold off my 7mm and see if the shooting changes. I do seem to have a tough time too getting the parallax adjusted out of any scope. I probably get too impatient when moving the AO in or out to find that spot where the crosshairs quit moving entirely. But, it's like no matter where I put it my eye has no problem focusing on target or reticle. Even my Leupold. And, no offense taken at the Springfield. It's basically a mid-range priced scope with a good gimmick. Better than some not as good as others that have long range shooting in mind. It's nearly impossible to match the ballistics in it I think. What kills me is I have shot well with a cheap scope on it.
Anyhow, I've always gotten about 100 or so fps less than the books give for velocity in my .308 with most powders I have procured here in MN. It has a 24" barrel, so it should be getting the full pressure of powder burning behind it. It isn't a premium quality barrel but like I said it has shot better in the recent past when I did something different...I don't know what. It still looks mirror like inside with no buildup that I can see around any of the lands.
There is always the possibility that it may get rebarreled to what I find that will work for it too. The action is a Santa Barbara that was hand engraved, so it's not only supposed to shoot well (and it has) it's supposed to be pretty when it's not.
I heard about the Range in Des Moines, and actually planned to go to the one Over in Wisconsin, if you're talking about the one just NorthEast of LaCrosse. There is also a new one just North of the Twin Cities but membership there is pretty hard to get. I go to Nevada because my parents and relatives and a lot of friends are still out there. For me it is just 25 bucks round trip flying standby on Northwest Airlines. I check two guncases with two guns each and my personal stuff is in a carry on. I usually do my relaoding at my dads so I don't have to move ammo too. We have about 75 miles of desert in which we have set up a few ranges of our own. Again though, Thank you for the information and direction. I'll start with a few things and see what works. -Todd
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