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300 wsm effective range
SCOUT5
Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
Hello, I posted a note on the Ask the Experts about mounting a scope on a recently purchased Tikka T3 SS lite in 300wsm. My question here is does can anyone here help me with what range this rifle in this cartridge is capable of killing deer size game, and then elk size game? I know there are a lot of variables and the biggest is my ability. My question is about the rifle and the cartidge, of course assuming I have a good rifle. Another question is how much optics will I need to access this range? All input appreciated.
Thanks.......Scout
Thanks.......Scout
Comments
as for elk, I could probably get close with just energy numbers,..but I'll reserve comment for someone who actually shoots elk to answer that.
Optics for long range work,...I like at least 22X. In reality, while shooting to say 300-400yds, a 16x is good enough.
You're right in your assessment that there are a lot of variables involved with gaining an answer to your question. So the easiest method is to construct some model that will allow us to examine and quantify some of these variables into usable information.
Your barrel is supposedly 24-3/8" long.
I use 155 gr. specialty bullets for my deer load at a measured 3150 FPS. This data is also backed up by the manufacturer. It is below the maximum operating pressure by 5,000 PSI. by direct measurement.
Therefore I can achieve 850 yards with over 1,000 ft./lbs. of energy remaining which is a ballpark energy level needed to harvest deer-type animals.
If you chose this same bullet for elk-type animals, you should limit your range to 600 yards which is the equivalent of 1,500 ft./lbs. of energy.
If you opt for a heavier bullet in pursuit of elk-type animals, this position changes slightly. My 185 gr. large animal hunting bullet is capable of 1,000 ft./lbs. of energy at 950 yards.
The 1,500 ft./lbs. limit will curtail the range to 650 yards.
Everybody can quibble with any set of facts and figures and some with justification. Most hunters don't use the custom bullets I do so the ranges derived from the bullets you will be using will be different. Your best bet is to shoot your own tests and shoot your drops for the distances that you will run into on the average hunt. Train and practice from all field positions, use a rangefinder which is critical to accuracy assessment and shoot as much as you possibly can. Most hunters that shoot over 200 yards use some additional form of artificial support such as a bipod, front bag or in the case of ultra-long range hunters, they drag a shooting table and rests along with them. Choose the best rest you can use under the conditions in which you hunt.
Best.
IF you spend lot's of time practicing to put the first round of the day within 4" of your intended impact point, under the worst weather conditions you'd be willing to hunt in, and limit your longest game shot to that range where you have a 98+% chance of placing the first round within that 8" "kill circle", than you will do well at long range hunting (and if you watch the yahoos at the rifle range, you will notice that a lot of them shouldn't take a shot past 50 yards even with a bench)
For most of us, and I place myself in that group, 300 yds +/- is a long ways when you are climbing mountains and stumbling over rocks. Given a rest over the hood of my pickup, I might stretch that some, but out in the wilds, I do not.
Just my $.02.
Thanks all.............Scout
Thanks for the answers. I was looking for one rifle to hunt antelopes to alsakan moose with that would handle a grizzly in a pinch. I finally settled on the 300wsm because I wanted a manageable rifle. I considered 300 wby and 300 RUM but didn't want to pack the longer barreled rifles it took to take advantage of the extra power. I bought the Tikka because it seemed to offer a lot for the money, wonderful trigger, accuracy guarantee etc. I was also wanting a rifle capable of 600 yards and a true 400 yards rifle, thus the 300 mag. For those concerned with my ethics, don't be. I beleive in learning the capabilities of my equipment and my ability to use it. I can usually get a little more range from a weapon than most people I know (that shoot), just by truly understanding the bullet drop at different ranges and adjusting for it. However I have never tried to shoot at the ranges we are discussing so practice is in order. I can go 300 yards with my 30-06 savage with confidence, a good rest and my breathing under control. That is all the accuracy this rifle is capable of and that is a 5-6" group. I have shot a 3" 300 yard group with my buddies 300 wby so I believe I can do it if my rifle will. I will have to but a good BDC scope to get the most out of the rifle and I can't even afford that right now and still but gas to hunt this year. But that is a question for another thread, what scope to top it with?
Thanks all.............Scout
Burris in Burris Signature rings
Hardly much to say here that hasn't really been covered and covered well. Your ethics on long range hunting will govern you in the right way I hope. Get out there and do some practicing in the weather. Start calling the wind real well first then deciding to shorten your shot in rain or snow is very critical. What would normally be a good shot in calm conditions becomes a "1/2 the range" shot when the WX kicks in. In the standard 15 minutes that it always takes the weather to change everywhere I've ever been.
But, as noted you will need to test your loads against a chrono in high and low temps. test your shooting against the wind and in shorter shooting conditions really see how much the wind affects your shots. I was at the range one day with a friend who shoots competitively. Another member walked up to us and expressed his frustration over not shooting MOA groups at 200 yds. like he did a couple days before. The wind that day was 5-15 gusting. We asked if he was holding for the wind. He said, "I have a 7mm Rem Mag. I don't need to hold for the wind." As long as you understand you really do need to hold for it. And that you need to be as precise about that as much as you can, You will do fine long range hunting.
A little misnomer, is that the WSM's produce better velocity out of a short barrel. I don't think they produce that much more velocity out of a short barrel. I found measuring my friends Tikka in 300 WSM with a 24" barrel that we were about 100 FPS low for published velocity.
I should stay out of this discussion. But my pet peeve is those who shoot too far at unwounded animals --- or at least talk about shooting them at extended ranges. You are the key. How far can you place a bullet into an effective kill zone under hunting conditions? Not nearly as far, IMHO, as the rifle & load combination will provide adequate energy from the "book."
Just my $.02.
WT
Re-read my post, and you will see that we have almost the same opinion. However I will ask you to note one thing, and that is that those of us that DO hunt long range also practice a lot more (at long range) than your "average" hunter does at any range (the "a box of hunting ammo lasts me 4-5 years" guys). I'd rather hang with the guys that know what their limitations are than the "great white hunter" types that can't keep 2 out of 10 shots on a pie plate at 50yds.
One thing that LRH does do is teach you to stay within your confidence zone, and to pass on ANY shot your not 98+% (it's never 100%) confident in making regardless of range.
Thank all and take care.........Scout
Thanks all...........Scout
I did not intend to disagree with your post. If fact, just the opposite. I thought I was agreeing with you. I understand that "some" are capable of shooting very well at extended distances. I have no reservations about their selection of shots. I have hunted the western mountains many times over the years & know my limitations. I also shoot (and have shot in the past) more than the average person. IMHO, too much conversation about one's personal abilities can encourage those less dedicated to the acquisition of the needed skill to try the "long" shots.
Scout --
Sounds like you are truly dedicated to your shooting activities. Good luck & good hunting.
I thought we were in agreement, but it's so hard to tell without being able to hear the voice tone or see the * expressions. [:)]
"As I recall the max effective range for rifles according to the Army is 460 meters because after that you cannot make out or hit your target."
Without more elaboration, when taken at face value as written, this statement is ridiculous. I'm not going to attempt to guess what is really meant because you didn't make the effort to explain.
I, like thousands of others, routinely shoot past 500 yards with the ability not only to resolve the target and hit it with intent several times but with better than MOA accuracy. I shoot F-Class out to 1,000 yards with better than MOA accuracy. I have killed Coues deer past 500 yards with one shot and two elk past 700 yards with one shot each. I know others who spend their hunting season specifically shooting game beyond 1,000 yards with perfect success.
It seems to me that you need to check this statement for accuracy and rethink the statement before posting something that has no basis in reality as written.
Best.
"As I recall the max effective range for rifles according to the Army is 460 meters because after that you cannot make out or hit your target."
nononsense....Does the Army ever really always make sense?? LOL.
charliemeyer007,
Welcome to the forums. I think you'll find that the same accuracy with words here that we intend to put bullets downrange helps. Lack of clarity, of which I am guilty of often so don't take this personally, leads to glib and/or misstatements that direct someone seeking advice in the wrong direction.
You can routinely shoot as far as you can see and hit what you see if you practice what it takes to do so. For many, that is quite a bit farther than the Army's 460m limit(-A1). With standards sights on an AR I might add. A1 style or A2. Add scope, and the range increases dramatically.
300 win mag and 300 wsm are similar as far as the numbers go.
I have taken elk at 800+ yds and one deer as far out as 1000.
I have taken several other deer and elk both anywhere from 50yds (not recomended very messy)out the 4-500 yds. I would say I average somewhere between 200-300yds. unless you plan on hunting the plans high high power glass is not needed. out here in the rockies the terrian changes to much, most time I'm lucky if I can see 400 yds. at least where I hunt. I am sure there are exceptions.
a lot of open land out
there ,but on the light side,
if we could see and shoot
1000 yards up here in the
Northeast ,you'd have to
shoot over six roads,
30 houses and a Walmart
before you hit the animal.
You all make me yearn for
wide open country
A square 10 acre field is 220 x 220 yd (1/8 x 1/8 mile).
A rectangular 20 acre field is 220 x 440 yd (1/8 x 1/4 mile)
A square 40 acre field is 440 x 440 yd (1/4 x 1/4 mile).
A rectangular 80 acre field is 440 x 880 yd (1/4 x 1/2 mile).
A rectangular 120 acre field is 440 x 1320 yd (1/4 x 3/4 mile)
A square 160 acre field, AKA 1/4 section, is 880 x 880 yd (1/2 x 1/2 mile).
A rectangular 320 acre field, AKA 1/2 section, is 880 x 1760 yd (1/2 x 1 mile)
A square 640 acre field, AKA a full section, is 1760 x 1760 yd (1 x 1 mile)
Know any farmers, that will let you hunt over their crop fields?
BTW, 1000yd is just under 5/8 of a mile
Scout
Tailgunner?
Ain't many farms left
in Nh,much less those that have
a square section of open field,
Even the big blue berry fields of Maine
where I orginally came from
don't have that much open land.
Guptil's might have some large fields out
back but not next to the airline
Most (not all) people that state that they can't find large open areas haven't considered hunting over crop fields, logged clearings or power line cuts.
From what I remember of NH (from the only time I was there), you could also consider some "hill to hill" shooting.
good ole boys from the Granite
State hunt in the woods and cuts.
We leave the wide open spaces and the
powerlines for the out of staters
so we can keep an eye on'em.
We just want their money,we don't want'em
shootin' our deer.[:D]
He won the 2006 longest shot of the year award, VHA.
Scout
I'm always a little skeptical when 'records' such as this are posted, simply because they are never made with one or two shots but generally a large number. So I went hunting for an article that explained the shot(s). This seems to be a case of where the badger ran into the bullet rather than a case of the shooter hitting the badger...
Here is an article:
Longest shot of 2006
By Dawn Slade
Mille Lacs County Times
Jesse Freese had the longest rifle shot of the year, according to the Varmint Hunters Association Inc. Hitting a badger at 2,238 yards has put him in the elite 2000 Downrange Club.
Since there's not a lot of areas in Minnesota that one can shoot a varmint over a mile away, Freese went to a ranch in Montana.
The hunter used a custom rifle chambered in 300 Winchester Short Mag with a 210-grain Berger VLD bullet. He also used a $2,500 Nightforce 8.5-32x scope.
Elmer Laitala, a gunsmith from Ogilvie who machined parts for Freese's gun, was one of five people who verified the shot.
The distance was measured with a Leica Geovid - a laser range finder.
In addition, the action was all caught on video.
"I was actually hunting prairie dogs," Freese said. "But the badger hung around too long."
In fact, it took Freese roughly 100 shots to get the badger.
"He was traversing right to left and kept coming in and out," Freese said of the varmint in his scope.
Freese says you need the "perfect geography" to attempt what he did - shooting downward from an elevated position through the "mirage" created by such a long distance.
Freese submitted his entry to the Varmint Hunters Association, Inc., in Pierre, S.D. but had no idea if he was the longest shot. The association does not divulge that information until they announce the winner at the end of the year.
Freese is now one of 16 who are part of the 2000 Yard Downrange Club. The longest shot in that elite group was an unbelievable 3,125 yards made by Kregg Slack in Nevada.
Freese admits it's an expensive sport, but he plans to continue hunting varmints.
He and his friends conduct population control for the ranchers by shooting the prairie dogs.
The badger, a scavenger, was eating prairie dog remains when Freese made his award-winning shot.
"They're ornery enough they don't care," Freese said of the badger being shot at so many times. "But, I finally connected."
http://www.millelacscountytimes.com/2007/january/11Freese.html
I did get my Tikka rifle and I went ahead and bought the Bushnell 4200 2.5x10x40 and mounted it in a set of low Tikka ringmounts. I know there are much better optics out there but that is what I could afford for now and the rain guard coating won out, after all it is an all weather hunting rifle. I'm much more comcerned about the ringmounts than the scope, they are aluminum. The company where I ordered the scope promised me they had a set of leupold bases that fit my gun so I ordered them with the scope, of course they don't fit well enough, I could machine them to fit but I'm not. I hope to get to the range in a couple of days and get it lined up with the ammo I have. At the price of premium 300 wsm ammo I am going to have to start loading my own, $40-55 for a 20 round box. Even the cheaper stuff is $23-30.
This is a wonderful venue to access experience, especially when I work a lot of hour and don't have time to run around and ask these questions.
Thanks..........Scout
FWIW, I think down the road you may find better optics than the Bushnell but as of late I've heard a lot more good than bad about the Elite 4200's. The Tikka wouldn't have been my first choice, only for price. But, I worked with a friend who bought one in 300 WSM SS and it was pretty accurate. It typically shot two together and one slightly off....means the shooter(me) could have been making the mistake. So, in all, I think you got a good rig set up there. -Enjoy
Ran across it in the VHA magazine..with little more data then what I posted. Should have smelled a rat..because generally they have more information about those shots.
One hardly can give much credit to the shooter..merely lobbing rounds down range, eventually, something will be hit.
Quite obviously, this was far beyond the range of the shooters ability and equiptment.
A little story behind the building of the rifle(s) that led up to the making of the long shot. Good read...it wasn't all luck but it did take a lot of tries!
http://www.varminthunter.org/downloads/Issue49.pdf
I wasn't demeaning the post at all, I was just adding to the information by posting the whole story. I think information like this needs to be posted and discussed because there is a very prevalent, current trend for shooters wanting to make longer shots than they are capable of making. Articles such as this tell the entire story so folks get the idea that it isn't just some fantastic, precision, one-shot kill. The accomplishment is diminished and put into a sharp perspective by the reality of the number of shots taken.
sandwarrior,
The total number of shots for the 3 kills was 155. At an average of 50+ shots per kill, I consider that to be more luck than anything else. Eventually, the prairie dog will run into the bullet. I'm sure that some statisticians have other descriptions of each individual event but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is an interesting article.
"By 9:30 Ken had fired about 50
rounds and finally had a kill - at 2,222
yards! By the time we had measured the
distance, the mirage forced us to quit for
the morning. In the late afternoon, the
mirage factor started to drop and we
could start shooting again. Our goal for
that afternoon was to get Ken into the
Varmint Hunters 1500 Yard Club. A
small wind had developed. After about
60 shots, with similar rifle results as in
the morning, Ken finally shot a dog at
1,546 yards. We were amazed at how
well the rifle performed at those long
ranges. Again and again Ken dropped the
bullet right on the mound. Instead of the
two or three quality shots out of nine that
we were getting before, we now were getting
accuracy with every shot. It was time
to head back to Minnesota with our successes
under our belt.
In September, with our rifle problems
solved, we headed back to Montana.
We'd had a good season and decided
to try for The Varmint Hunters
Association Longest Shot of the Year
Award. The two of us thought a shot in
excess of 2,500 yards might qualify. We
set up a shot for 2,800 yards and again
the weather cooperated - no wind and
no mirage. The dogs came out around
8:00 a.m. to feed. We focused on a dog
feeding about 6 yards from the mound
and Ken started shooting. Forty-five
shots later a kill was confirmed at 2,784
yards, and Ken qualified for 2002's
Longest Shot of the Year."
Shooting and killing ethically at long range requires not only superb equipment but intensive practicing in order to produce the necessary skills to achieve consistent, repeatable accuracy that doesn't require luck to enter into the equation. Lots of us manage to do the practicing and learn the skills to accomplish that goal.
Best.
I certainly agree that luck played a big picture in this story. Even though the preparation was great. Being able to find ones way down through what wind there is even at 1000 yds. is a difficult task. Even when you have the best equipment you know YOU can put together. It takes a lot of practice to get good enough to do that. Which, I'm sure has been brought into question before. Can you do that and know you can do that? A hunting ethics question for the ages. I personally would have shot at a lot more paper than what they did before I attempted an animal.
And as described the number of seconds the round was in the air will tell you it was luck....all it would take is one little gust and that bullet went a long ways in the wrong direction.
We've certainly covered a lot of ground during the course of this thread and managed to discuss a lot of good information. Your choice of the .300 WSM will stand you in good stead with your selection of game so long as you pick an appropriate bullet by construction. The .30 caliber bullet selection is huge, making it a great choice for cartridges to be used under varying circumstances and game choices.
Enjoy yourself and take pictures during the hunt so we can all share the experience with you!
Best.
sandwarrior,
"Can you do that and know you can do that?"
When I hunt paper targets, I can read wind as good as most of the average competitors. Besides, during a competition there are sight in periods where you can test the wind and mirage for a short time to get an approximate feel for conditions. Am I a great wind reader? Heavens no! I can't devote the time to endless days of practicing and competitions that can hone that skill to the ultimate sharp edge. My businesses keep me way too busy to enjoy a shooting and practicing schedule that others manage to enjoy in order to achieve the very top levels.
Big Game hunting is a different story. I let the weather conditions dictate the limits of my shooting. The conditions that I hunt in are extremely variable. One minute it's sunny and beautiful, the next the wind is howling with a gale force. It's cool and clear in the early morning and 90+ degrees during the daytime. Mirage can get real ugly!
Under some conditions, long shots are easy. Under switching and changing conditions, I shorten up my range of acceptable targets. I've been lucky to shoot some game under ideal longer range conditions. If stalking is possible, that's my first choice of course. There have been a few seasons though where I've gone home empty handed by choice. The conditions weren't suitable to longer shots and creeping closer across an open canyon doesn't happen. I haven't learned to fly or walk on air. While this can be aggravating, it's hunting as we all know and there are no guarantees. So I go home and dream about the next season when I can try again. No different than most hunters.
Best.
I don't believe that 'demeaning' is a process you indulge in.
I have been reading and enjoying your posts for awhile..and feel that facts take precedence over opinion or conjecture with you.
Some may get upset over facts,but we live..or die..by the facts.
There are times I read the question asked, and feel I might respond with some pithy statement...and generally find that if you have answered it..very little or nothing need be added..
I personally wish to thank you for your sharing of hard-won knowlege with those of us on the forum..and the total lack of condescension from you.