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New Cartridge for High Power Shooters!

nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
From Hornady's website:

6.5 Creedmoor

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Rocket fuel for your race gun.

Hornady?_Ts new 6.5 Creedmoor is as pedigreed as it is precise. Developed by Dave Emary, Hornady?_Ts Senior Ballistic Scientist and Dennis DeMille, General Manager of CreedmoorAr Sports and two-time NRA National High Power Rifle Champion, this cartridge has more pedigree than any other match cartridge on the market.

The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed to allow any shooter to compete at the highest level with factory-loaded ammunition. Built for match rifles, including the Tubb 2000 and DPMS LR Series, its case is slightly shorter than the 260 Remington, eliminating any ?_oCartridge Overall Length?__ issues when using 308 Winchester length magazines.

The 6.5 Creedmoor delivers world-class long-range performance in a factory loaded cartridge.

A sharper 30A? shoulder and aggressive body taper allow the 6.5 Creedmoor to deliver higher velocities than other 6mm and 6.5mm cartridges. and yet it operates at standard 308 Winchester pressures, thus increasing barrel and case life. Coupled with these velocities and these bullets, Hornady has developed a round that is flat shooting, wind defying and extremely accurate. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the ultimate match cartridge.
(con't)

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=763

6.5 Creedmoor

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Hornady has announced a new, 6.5mm cartridge designed for Across-the-Course and High Power shooters, and 3-gun competitors. (We think the new round may also prove very popular with hunters and tactical shooters.) Dubbed the 6.5 Creedmoor, the cartridge is smaller than a .260 Remington (.308-size case) but larger than the 6.5A-47 Lapua. Measuring 1.920?_3 from base to mouth, 6.5 Creedmoor brass features a 30A? shoulder and minimal body taper. Case capacity is ?_oright around 53.0 grains of H20?_3 according to Hornady. The 6.5 Creedmoor uses a large rifle primer and large flash hole.
(con't)

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html


For your reflection...

Best.

Comments

  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    nononsense,

    Thanks for the recent postings with newest cartridges. As I'm sure you will see some to follow may not be impressed with efficiency in these smaller cartridges but I think it's a pretty cool deal. Not sure what the base case is for the 6.5 Creedmoor but it seems about like a Savage .250/300 size case with steeper shoulders? If my job/financial situation allowed I would probably be right in the thick of things as far as getting one and toying with it. BTW, I wonder how many 30-06 guys would want to stack up against it at 1000 yds.?
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
    edited November -1
    sandwarrior,

    Wildcatters have been working with cartridges similar to the 6.5 Creedmoor for 4 - 5 decades. These new versions are finessing the concept in order to refine the powder capacity and match it to the newer generation of VLD bullets that are coming right along with the new cases. And it isn't just the 6.5s but the whole spectrum of the 6mms as well. The goal apparently is to achieve the balance for the intermediate ranges which satisfies the High Powder shooters and the fairly new and rapidly growing segment of F-Class shooters.

    I drew the case out this evening and worked out the capacity and it is or could have been derived from the .300 Savage. I was within .3 of a grain of their volume by the time I expanded the shoulder and made it 30 degrees.

    The first thing that should be asked is "what's wrong with the .260 Rem. which has the same case capacity?" That's answered by the same concept of the RSAUMs as opposed to the WSM cases. The slightly shorter cases allow the longer VLD bullets to be seated out longer in the magazine therefore yielding a slightly higher case capacity. This is important to competitors that are required to use a magazine instead of firing single shot.

    The second things is "why not use the small flash hole like Lapua did?" I think Lapua used the small flash hole to set themselves apart from all of the rest of these intermediate capacity cases. While I know they have some data that proves that this one feature enhances the accuracy of the case, we all know that given the number of variables involved with the entire spectrum of accuracy that the flash hole diameter might not be the ultimate answer to gaining accuracy. I'm glad Hornady stuck with the standard diameter flash hole.

    The 30 degree shoulder is for the same reason, feeding from the magazine as well as curtailing some of the bolt thrust encountered by the sharper, 40 degree shoulders of the Ackley cartridges. I was working with the 35 and 40 degree shoulders about 12 years ago in conjunction with the .250 Savage and the .284 cases necked to take the 6.5 bullets. I improved the .250 cases and shortened the .284 cases to get the capacity to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 - 53 grains. This is and has been the nearly ideal range for the mid-weight 6.5mm bullets as justified by the new case designs coming from Lapua and Hornady. They fall off slightly when loaded with the heavy weight bullets, answering the question as to why we have new mid-weight bullets.

    All of this is fascinating to me and I look forward to being able to play with all of these new(er) cases and bullets. It's been a full year for me so hopefully my schedule will slow down a tiny bit in order for me to have some extra time to play on my own ideas.

    Best.
  • Mk 19Mk 19 Member Posts: 8,170
    edited November -1
    nononsense, How do you think the 6.5 Creedmoor will compare with the 6.5X284 in long range performance? Will this be another barrel burner?
  • eastbankeastbank Member Posts: 4,215
    edited November -1
    if you are bench rest shooting, why use a short action ? most bench guns are single shot any way. so why not use a long action and seat your bullets out as much as you want. i have a schultz and larsen single shot long action 54j in 6mm and i can put a loaded 30-06 in the loading port with no trouble at all. if i were to jump on the 6.5 band wagon i would build a 6.5-06 ackly improved, with the good bullets and powder available today, i think it would be a good long range rifle with very cheap parent 30-06 cases. and could be loaded up or down as needed.eastbank.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
    edited November -1
    How do you think the 6.5 Creedmoor will compare with the 6.5X284 in long range performance? Will this be another barrel burner?

    6.5 Creedmoor Loaded Ammo Specifications
    Bullet COAL (max) Powder Grains Primer Velocity PSI
    120gr Amax 2.820? H4350 43.5 LrgR 3020 fps under 60,000
    140gr Amax 2.820? H4350 41.2 LrgR 2820 fps under 60,000


    "Dave and Dennis wanted to provide factory-loaded ammo that would be 100% competitive with any High Power chambering, including the 6XC and 6.5x47 Lapua. The 6.5 Creedmoor was purpose-built for match rifles, including the Tubb 2000 and DPMS/Panther Arms LR Series. Its case is shorter than the 260 Remington, so you can load even the longest bullets into .308-Win length magazines. Pushing a 120gr Amax at 3000+ fps, the 6.5 Creedmoor offers a nice, flat trajectory plus good wind-bucking ability."




    6.5 x 284 Load Chart

    Powder Grains Primer Bullet Velocity Comments
    Hodgdon H4831SC 51+ F210m Sierra 142 2950 fps Jason Baney Load
    Hodgdon H4350 48.5 F210m Sierra 142 2950 fps John Brewer Schneider Barrel Load
    Hodgdon H4350 49.0 CCI BR2 Sierra 142 2975+ fps Hoover Match Load. Fire-form at 48.0.
    Hodgdon H4831SC 51.5 F210m Sierra 142 3050 fps Bill Shehane Load for 6.5 Shehane
    (Ackley shoulder, .008"/inch taper)
    Hodgdon H4831SC 51.0 F210m Sierra 142 2885 fps Froggy's Tactical Load, 26" bbl.
    Hodgdon H1000 55.0 RWS Sierra 142 2880 fps Hodgdon Max load (compressed). Moly SMKs. Win brand brass, necked-down.
    Hodgdon H4350 49.5 CCI BR2 JLK 140 2980 fps 28.5" Krieger. Very consistent.
    Vihtavuori N160 48.5 F210m Lapua 139 2950 fps Moderate, prone competition load.
    Vihtavuori N165 53.0 Win LR Lapua 139 2940 fps Jumped .025" in 30" Krieger bbl.
    Vihtavuori N165 53.0 F210m GTB 141 2950 fps 33" bbl. Burns clean, good barrel life. Cauterucio VLD.

    I think that the 6.5 Creedmoor compares very well with the 6.5 x 284 for long range target or any other type of shooting. Current velocities for the 6.5 x 284 are running right around 2950 FPS and the 6.5 Creedmoor is in the same ballpark but with slightly lighter bullets. The difference falls onto the volume of the loads with the 6.5 x 284 using something in the neighborhood of 51.5 gr. and the 6.5 Creedmoor using 42.5 g. to achieve the same or similar velocities.

    The biggest complaint against the 6.5 x 284 has always been the case capacity and the resultant throat damage that seemingly every shooter experienced when using full house loads. After tons of testing, the long range folks determined that they really needed to step the velocities down in order to save some of the accuracy life of a barrel. Many of us noted (here on GB and elsewhere) that given the velocities being used, why bother with the .284 case at all? That's when cases like the 6.5 x 55 and the .260 Rem. started getting more air time. All of this was not lost on Lapua or any of the other developers especially since they were investing in cases with similar capacities for the 6mm bullets. It was just a matter of getting slightly more case capacity for the longer and heavier 6.5mm bullets. Based on the initial testing, it appears that we can get the same performance from a smaller cartridge case, while reducing the throat erosion and recoil.

    "if you are bench rest shooting, why use a short action ?"

    These examples are not restricted to just benchrest shooting but include High Power where weight and balance are considerations, thus the use of short actions. Benchrest folks use the short actions to minimize the lock time of the firing pin and several other reasons.

    Best.
  • eastbankeastbank Member Posts: 4,215
    edited November -1
    looks like some one wants to sell another gun. i don,t know if there are enough shooters that will want it, just like the short magnums,if you don,t load they are 32.00-38.00 dollars a box and 90 percent of the hunters could get by with a 25-06 260,270,308,30-06 out to 300 yds easy. with all the whoop and holler these last few years about higher and higher volicity and shooting at very long ranges,it makes the average riflemen think it,s a piece of cake. well let me tell you that at the 1000yd range at williamsport pa. shooting a 6.5-300 WWH (write weatherby hoyer) with a norma 139 boat tail bullet going 3400fps,i have seen 63 inchs of wind drift from relay to relay. now 63 inchs of wind drift misses a lot of elk size animals. eastbank.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
    edited November -1
    eastbank,

    6.5-300 WWH (Weatherby-Wright-Hoyer)

    "Col. Paul Wright used the 300 Weatherby case for a cartridge named the 6.5/300 Weatherby-Wright-Hoyer Magnum, which was used for impressive 1000-yard match shooting. The Hodgdon lab fired this cartridge at over 3400 fps with a heavy charge of H-202 powder behind a 130-grain match bullet, at 55,000 psi. Hodgdon carried this experiment further and built a 6.5/378 Weatherby. It was concluded that this behemoth case would not produce more than 3400 fps with bullets of 140 grains, so it was no improvement on the smaller case."

    "looks like some one wants to sell another gun.'

    Nothing like stating the obvious. Of course someone wants to sell another gun. and some ammunition too or cases, bullets, primers and power. And maybe a scope with rings and a base to go with it. And maybe a dozen other things that can accessorize a good rifle. It's called commerce and that's what keeps any industry going, new ideas and new products. Stale, stagnant markets require stimulation in order to stir the dust of ambivalence, to get the folks talking about ideas and concepts for enhancing their shooting experiences.

    "if you don,t load they are 32.00-38.00 dollars a box'

    These cartridges are designed for reloading. It's through reloading that we all achieve the very best that we and our rifles are capable of accomplishing. Factory ammunition has rarely been able to provide anything even close to what handloaders can achieve. FGMM is an easy example of an exception.

    "90 percent of the hunters could get by with a 25-06 260,270,308,30-06 out to 300 yds easy."

    Another overt observation. 99% of hunters in the U.S. could make do with the .30-06 successfully. But that certainly isn't a reason to cease all efforts to keep the industry fueled with ideas and concepts revolving around achieving better performance. Horses are great for transportation but virtually all of us have outgrown them at this point. If you don't want to think, grow or stretch your imagination and performance, no problem. However, many of us really do enjoy newer ideas and thrive on attempting to be better at our sport.

    There are a number of us that have experience shooting and hunting at 1,000 yards and farther so we all understand wind drift and bullet drop. And while I generally will use my scope adjustments to accommodate changes, I have been known to hold off two target frames while shooting prone at 1,000 yards. Your 62" would be in fairly calm air around here.

    The 6.5 Creedmoor and the other examples of Hornady's offerings may not be the most original of concepts but they fulfill a need or at least some desire right now. They're also good for the industry.

    Best.
  • eastbankeastbank Member Posts: 4,215
    edited November -1
    nononsence, your right. but if a new rifle or calibure does not catch on with the average shooter or hunter it,s doomed to become exstink very soon. the past is littered with alot of them that only a small group of dedicated shooters keep alive,and there is nothing wrong with that but they soon leave the main stream of use.i knew alex hoyer very well and spent a lot of time in his gun shop when it was located it the lewistown narrows between mifflintown and lewistown pa. the 6.5x300wwh was the new kid on the block in the late 60,s. but it has gone the way of the doo doo bird. i enjoy playing with new guns and calibures but it takes a fair amount of money to keep up with it and i,m afraid the average shooter and hunter may have a hard time doing it. i enjoy any thing that has to do with the shooting sports and don,t mind paying for the enjoyment i get from it. eastbank.
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My favorite take on the round was by the guy who said: "Looks like it would be good to make 6XC out of."

    I am getting the idea that there may be more 6x6.5x47s being shot than the original 6.5. If the brass is good quality, there will surely be a 6 Creedmoor along shortly. Smaller and smaller.
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    I like It!![^]
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,599
    edited November -1
    nononsense,

    Just wondering if this will be something like the .30 T/C in which it will have a major manufacturer building a rifle or even in T/C's case making a barrel? A slim possibility I know, but at least Savage came out with their F-class rifle in 6.5-284. Maybe someone will want to jump on that market sector.
  • jtmarine0831jtmarine0831 Member Posts: 908 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nononsense, this is mainly a question for you but all replies are welcome on the 6.5. Why is 6.5mm such a craze in the competition realm? If you don't go with the .30 Cal. why not the 7mm, it boasts some of the highest coefficents? I am no competiton shooter by no means, but I do enjoy the long shot with my .308 and am happy with what it does, but I am intrigued with long range marksmanship. And the talk about O.A.L issues and magazines? Most likely all these rifles are custom correct? Then why not have a chamber cut to a dummy round so you dont have the issue of "bore jumping" as you would with a factory cut chamber? I understand the part about short actions though and am a big fan of short actions myself. Oh well, I guess I'm just ignorant and might as well just stick to blastin' stuff. Good Luck and Good Shooting!
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
    edited November -1
    sandwarrior,

    I'm sorry I missed this earlier but my schedule is merciless at this point.

    "Just wondering if this will be something like the .30 T/C in which it will have a major manufacturer building a rifle or even in T/C's case making a barrel? A slim possibility I know, but at least Savage came out with their F-class rifle in 6.5-284. Maybe someone will want to jump on that market sector."

    I'm really not sure what these new cartridges are going to encourage in this market short term. Two things are for sure:

    I am thrilled with the confidence expressed by the manufacturers that are committed to the market and are bringing out the new cartridges and components for us to use rather than letting the market stagnate. Traditionally, this time of the year, including Christmas, are somewhat slower in the firearms market. The folks more closely involved in retail sales can help out here if I'm misleading anyone. By releasing these new cartridges and components, companies like Hornady are teasing us into looking, reading and maybe investing in some of their products. Stimulus. It also gets folks fired up for the other releases scheduled for the S.H.O.T. Show. Stimulus.

    These new components are an extension of the work that was done quite a number of years ago and is ongoing today, the search for better, more accurate and more efficient cartridges coupled with better components. More shooters in general seem to be looking at the successes of the target shooting faction in order to see if there is something non-exotic available for them to use that would improve their chances of gaining accuracy through components and chambers. The shooters are striving for greater accuracy and efficiency from these new components and cartridges. The manufacturers are making these components more readily available for the average shooters.

    In my opinion, the average shooter doesn't want to have to go through the agony of creating exotic cases and use exotic bullets in order to achieve better accuracy. The manufacturers that have stepped up with the new cartridges and components are helping that desire along by taking the development agony out of the process. All of us can now order or go to the gun shop and buy these cartridges and components over the counter. What's wrong with that? Not a thing!

    I've been so busy that I haven't had time to consult the crystal ball or talk to some of my friends in the industry. The answer to your question is that I don't know for sure but I can guess.

    In my opinion, it would behoove several of the major manufacturers to get in the mix and start to get some projects on the drawing board and into the manufacturing stream. My picks for the most likely makers to jump on the bandwagon should be Sako and Savage. Sako, because their actions are suitable quality-wise to sell the chambers especially if they offer these as top-of-the-line Varmint and entry level Target rifles. They're already known for quality and accuracy so there wouldn't be much of a leap at all to step up another level.

    Savage recently released their single shot actions and new target stocked rifle which would be a perfect basis for this chamber by making it available to the Varmint and Target shooters. It's too easy to pass up as far as I'm concerned.

    All-in-all, this is an accuracy/target cartridge being made available to the general public in a no-muss, no fuss package of cartridge and components.

    That's a long way around the barn, sorry.

    Best.
  • nononsensenononsense Member, Moderator Posts: 10,645 ******
    edited November -1
    jtmarine0831,

    Nice deer!

    "this is mainly a question for you but all replies are welcome on the 6.5. Why is 6.5mm such a craze in the competition realm? If you don't go with the .30 Cal. why not the 7mm, it boasts some of the highest coefficents? I am no competiton shooter by no means, but I do enjoy the long shot with my .308 and am happy with what it does, but I am intrigued with long range marksmanship. And the talk about O.A.L issues and magazines? Most likely all these rifles are custom correct? Then why not have a chamber cut to a dummy round so you dont have the issue of "bore jumping" as you would with a factory cut chamber? I understand the part about short actions though and am a big fan of short actions myself. Oh well, I guess I'm just ignorant and might as well just stick to blastin' stuff. Good Luck and Good Shooting!"

    "Why is 6.5mm such a craze in the competition realm?"

    Honestly, I think it was just rediscovered. The 6.5mm bullets and cartridges have always been excellent performers. I give you the 6.5x55 Swede as a sterling example.

    Target shooters and long ranger shooters, like the varmint shooters of yesterday, have always been in the forefront of the experimenters so it was only a matter of time before some of them 'discovered' the higher BC bullets and better performance of the 6.5mm bullets and cartridges. They get high performance from smaller capacity cartridge cases and achieve excellent wind bucking with the smaller bullets. Smaller cases and lighter bullets can lead to reduced recoil and all of the benefits associated with it. But like all things that have to function in our world of chemistry and physics, there are limits to the performance.

    Why not the 7mm and .30 caliber? No reason whatsoever. They are commonly used in most competition and casual get-togethers for shooting long range. I think that competition shooters usually get bored when nearly everyone is shooting the same or similar cartridges so they intentionally look for the new, different and unusual in order to be separated from the crowd. There is a certain degree of ego involved here so not everything is rational. The internet has shortened the oscillating graph of new cartridges and new developments. Within a matter of a few days of a shooter winning with a new or different cartridge or bullet, the rest of the shooting public has read it on various forums. Then the race is on for who can get new barrels and chambers cut and mounted on an action in order to get into the fray and not be left behind.

    I have stated before and I'll state again, there are very few cartridges that I don't like. The .308 Win. is a old favorite and will always be a current favorite of mine. I just plain enjoy shooting a good rifle chambered for the .308 Win. It is still successful in the fields of competition as well as a more than successful cartridge for hunting. But that doesn't stop most of us from looking into and working with a ton of new cartridges and bullets in order to learn all that we can about what we do on a daily basis.

    I'm not quite sure how to cover the rest of your post without writing a book. This is going to be long enough so I'll try to be economical with my explanation.

    Most of your question can be answered by the term justification or how we as shooters justify new ideas and concepts. In order to achieve what we desire from certain components, we do things like seat bullets out, seat them into and off of the lands, change the angle of the throat, lengthen and shorten the leade, on and on. We're always looking for the next newest and better idea. Read through the many books written about 'wildcatting' and target shooting to get a better feel for all the machinations we go through in order to beat the best and be the best. Itinerant reloaders should be included here since they are guilty of pushing the barriers as much as the shooters.

    That's the best I can do with the limits of space and time. I hope it helps a little.

    Best.
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