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Thinking of building a Hot Rod for LR
ContacFront
Member Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
Gentlemen,
I am thinking of building a rig for tactical long range shooting but not chambered in your standard "military" cartridges. Thinking more of a hot rod round like the 6.5x284, or even a straight 284, which is a 7mm I think? Guys have been reporting a lot better barrel life with the straight 284 but I do not know what kind of performance it has vs the 6.5 x 284.
Any thoughts?
Requirements. Has to be built off a Rem 700 action.
Must be able to feed from a mag. No single shots.
Longer barrel life is a plus but I know with any of these bad boys your barrel gets shot out fast.
I am thinking of building a rig for tactical long range shooting but not chambered in your standard "military" cartridges. Thinking more of a hot rod round like the 6.5x284, or even a straight 284, which is a 7mm I think? Guys have been reporting a lot better barrel life with the straight 284 but I do not know what kind of performance it has vs the 6.5 x 284.
Any thoughts?
Requirements. Has to be built off a Rem 700 action.
Must be able to feed from a mag. No single shots.
Longer barrel life is a plus but I know with any of these bad boys your barrel gets shot out fast.
Comments
I would use a long action for any of these as the magazine in the short actions won't allow feeding of long seated rounds.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
It has always been one of my favorites, and I dearly love my XP 284 but my next toy will be one in a long action set up for the heavy weight bullets for the reasons JustC stated.
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at.
This is quite a far ranging topic, no pun intended! You can get caught up in the cartridges but you need to pay attention to the bullet selection, powders and necessary barrel length for the entire concept. It's a real pain to decide on a cartridge only to find that there's only one or two bullets and powders that will work for your particular barrel. Remember that you don't necessarily have to have a barrel burner to accomplish your goals, but if you want a fire-breather, there's nothing wrong with that idea, either. Take some extra time to look at the project as a whole before making some of these decisions.
Yes, the .284 Win. is a 7mm cartridge, similar to the .280 Remington or the 7 x 64 Brenneke in volume except that the .284 Win. is designed for short actions while the .280 Rem. requires a long action. All 3 are quite capable of staying supersonic out to 1500 yards. That's of course with the 180 gr. Berger VLD and an OAL of 3.100" for the .284 Win. which requires a long action.
Then to, you could look at one of the East Coast favorites, the 7mm BooBoo by Dave Tooley... or one that I've been playing with for a while, the 7mm RSAUM... or even another factory cartridge, the 7 STW. All of these will fit and feed from a magazine and will make the trip to the 1,000 yard targets easily.
As far as 6.5's are concerned, there's hardly a bad cartridge that you might choose for long range. I've shot most of them for long range including the 6.5-284, 6.5 Swede, 260 Rem./AI, 6.5-06, 6.5 Rem. Mag. and a couple of wildcats like the 6.5 WSSM and the 6.5 WSM. They all work great I think, due to the excellent bullets being made for competition and hunting.
Efficiency would have to go to the 6.5 Swede and the .260 Rem. In fact, quite a few of the Tactical competitors that I know are using the .260 Rem. and they are winning. Both will do fine at 1,000 yards and in F-class competition. The 6.5 WSSM is cute but potent. You won't believe the accuracy and range of this little cartridge. It will run through the standard short action magazines and will make the 1,000 yard line and then some. Technically, it's in the same class as the Swede and the 260 Rem. but it does a bit better in my opinion. If you want all the gusto that you stand, I would suggest the 6.5 x 68S which is a European cartridge with a substantial case capacity. Long barrels and short life are the rule, but man, what a ride!
The small 6mm cartridges run the Benchrest matches but some are transitioning into longer games as well. The 6mm Rem. BR and it's many derivatives, 6 Dasher and the 6 BRX, etc., are current record holders at 600 yards and perform quite well at 1,000 yards, also. Very mild and accurate. The 6-250 Savage, 6 x 47 Swiss and the darling of David Tubb, the 6 XC, are intermediate cartridges seeing a lot of service out to the longest yardages. David took his 11th title this year shooting this cartridge with 115 gr. DTAC (Sierra) bullets.
I don't see anything wrong with jumping right to the top of the list and using a 240 Weatherby loaded with the 115 gr. Berger VLD's. This combination is a superb performer at 1,000 yards and beyond. I'm using a 30" barrel so when I run the chrongraph information through a ballistics program, I'm good to go even out to 1,500 yards. You don't have to use the Weatherby cases (I do) but you could work up some loads using the 6.5-284 cases or even the venerable '06 cases.
My newest venture is the really long (high BC) 22 caliber bullets in medium volume cases like the 22-243 AI and the 22-6mm Rem. Chambered in barrels 28" or longer, they are capable of 1,000 yard accuracy but they seem to suffer a bit when the wind comes up out here. It sure is fun to bring out a .22 caliber cartridge though and see what the other guys on the line have to say.
As I've written before, I'm not a top echelon competitor nor do I have any intention of being one. But I do load and shoot lots of these different cartridge for testing purposes at long range. This may be long winded but there's still a bunch more to consider. Remember to look at the whole picture.
Best.
I am personally leaning towards a 25 WSSM using Berger 115's for really long range. I have a 7mm that I really like, but thought something lighter could do the job as well. It's using economy/efficiency to go a long ways vs. power to get the range. I really like the idea too of using the .284 WIN in a custom long action so you can seat the bullets way out there.
Nononsense,
I was kind of hoping you might expound a little more on the 6.5 WSSM or possibly a derivative that stretched the case just a little bit, somewhere between the wsm and wssm lengths. No doubt that particular combo would really fly with out dealing with a hammer blow every time you fired. Also, what is the 6 XC (a general description) that David Tubb is using. I know I read an article about him once when he was shooting a .243 Win with custom 1-8 twist barrel with Sierra's for some outstanding groups at 1000 yds. He was talking about going back to the 6mm from the 6.5-284 as he was looking at reducing throat erosion.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
I have always been a fan of the '6XC' as David has named it, but when it had other names such as 6-250 Savage, 6mm International, 6mm HLC, on and on... But it is the 6-250 Savage by any other name essentially. There is nothing easier than creating a great target cartridge by merely fireforming 22-250 brass while varmint hunting.
The newest lust factor in this arena is the 6 x 47 Swiss which is also similar to the 6-250 Savage but produced by RUAG in Switzerland and they don't want to export the brass for the U.S. market. Needless to say, the dogs are really howling up a storm that they can't have the 'newest and the best' over here. I use 22-250 cases from RWS or Horneber and they last a long time.
Bear in mind that this is a business project for David, not some experimental target cartridge just for fun and philanthropy. David's improvements can be considered to be a true contribution, simply from the standpoint that he is having better brass made specifically for this cartridge, rather than just the recycling an old cartridge idea. He has also increased the shoulder angle to 30 degrees which promotes better efficiency for powder conversion to plasma. The powder capacity of this cartridge is very nearly perfect for this style of shooting with long, heavy bullets.
This all came together with the development of the 115 gr. DTAC long range bullet being manufactured for David by Sierra. David did the work up on the designs that Sierra was experimenting with and he inked a deal with Sierra to be the sole distributor. Sierra can't even sell these bullets. David has a big bunch of his own money in this venture, it's not a gimme from Sierra by any means. I was fortunate enough to have had a long, extremely informative conversation with Davis last year regarding this project.
Here is an article:
http://www.6mmbr.com/6XC.html
6XC non-moly and moly
Cross section 6XC and 6BR note the increased head (web) thickness
6.5 WSSM
This cartridge came about in the flurry of activity that usually follows the release of a new case. It's always a race to see who can be first with a particular idea so that they can get their name on a cartridge. I'm sure that there wasn't a lot investigative lab work done for this creation, rather it was necked up (down was already done) to see if anything came close to working right.
The 6.5 WSSM is a very nice little cartridge to play with for long range shooting. With a case capacity of about 58.0 grains, it's right in there with the 260AI, 6.5 x 55, 6.5 x 57 and several other wildcats but in a short, fat case. It does seem to yield better efficiency than the longer cases AND you can seat these extra long bullets out and still be within the short magazine restrictions.
As to "stretching" this case or some other variation, I'm not sure what can be gained or accomplished. The neck on the WSSM case is short enough already so I wouldn't try to push the shoulder any further forward. The choice then would have to be shortening another case with these similar dimensions but leaving it longer for an increase in case capacity. We already have the 6.5-284 with a capacity of 66.0 gr. of H2O. Many of the 1,000 yard shooters are complaining about throats being burned out quickly and they are cutting back on the loads that they use. So should we split this difference and try to go with maybe a case of 62.0 gr. capacity? I suppose that anything should be tried, it's just what the payoff will be in terms of usability and ease of making the case.
You could try to reduce the Dakota cartridges down to a lesser capacity but at $1.75/case, this will be received with some degree of coolness. Or maybe reduce some of the RUM brass to get to a shorter case, or even the 6.5 x 68S? I know a gunsmith/shooter in France that has gone so far as to turn the belts off of some 6.5 Rem. Mag. cases thereby avoiding having to true up the belts and then headspaces off the shoulder. I've gone the other way and said screw the folks that don't approve of belts and made a rifle that shoots the 6.5 and a 7mm made on the 6.5 Rem. Mag. case. It's in the same class as the 284 case cartridges but with a little better velocity from a little more capacity. The next step up from there is the RSAUM at 73.0 gr. of H2O. I know it can be done but what do you want to accomplish? Is there another case that could require less work and succeed with your desire?
I don't have all the answers but I can always come up with questions. Lots of questions to answer and beat around in discussions around the campfire. Good stuff to think about.
This is Boyd Heaton's 6.5 WSSM version:
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
I don't remember which one he was referring to. I haven't been reading at that other BB for quite a while. Is it still up and running? Something like LongRangeWildcats?
The 6.5 WSSM is good cartridge but we can accomplish the same thing with other brass, reamers and dies that aren't quite so custom. Still, it's fun to work with on occasion.
I've got some 25 caliber projects on line for this fall and winter when I get some time freed up. But some of them will depend upon some bullet designs that aren't refined yet. I could use some more days in the week...
Best.
so, what do you think of the RSAUM case instead of the WSM? I have been thinking of the 6.5mm version of that. How has it run for you? what about an "improved" version? Boyd and I talked for several hours at the harrisbirg show a few years back. He is definitely one of those who chases the same thing we do[8D]
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
Personally, I'm playing with a combination of the two cases. I like the case capacity and length of the RSAUM but I like the 35 degree shoulder of the WSM. The brass from both manufacturers can be a little uneven so I end up sorting cases and lightly turning necks for concentricity.
The 73.0 gr. capacity of the RSAUM is a bit much for the 6.5 bullets but if I use Re-25 or Ramshot Magnum, it behaves very nicely. I have to seat the 139/140 gr. bullets to 3.100" OAL. The best bet is actually V V N-165 except that it runs a bit slower than the other two powders. However, it burns a little cooler and cleaner than the others also.
The RSAUM case really shines though, when you leave it as the 7mm. That capacity with heavier Match bullets seated out is nearly perfect as far as I'm concerned. Combine this with a 28" barrel and you've got plenty of velocity and energy to go beyond 1,000 yards.
Best.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
150 gr. Sierra MK w/
V V N-160
AA-4350
Re-19
Ramshot Hunter
160 gr. AccuBond w/
same as above
162 gr. AMAX
same as above
168 gr. Berger VLD (OAL = 2.950")
same as above
180 gr. Berger VLD (OAL = 3.050")
V V N-165
Re-25
Ramshot Magnum
H-4831sc
The two Bergers are my choice with the 180 gr. showing the most promise. It's a huge bullet at something just over 1.5" in length. I think that the Accubonds are great for hunting but they miss being target bullets by the slightest bit at the longer range paper.
Overall, it's fun to shoot this cartridge knowing that you have all the velocity and energy that you could possibly use and accuracy to boot. It's not as picky as some of the stuff I've worked with for years. Pretty near to "fill 'er up" and go shoot.
Best.
I gotta say these are the threads I really enjoy. So much information and the door for speculation remains wide open. On the 6XC you show the web being much thicker to help absorb the load. I know that the .257+p brass is made that way. I took a batch of it and necked it up to 7mm and the stuff worked great. I took them back down to .257 as I didn't want wrong headstamps floating around. I noticed also that Hornady is now putting out their .257 RBTS 117gr light magnum at 2930. But, to my knowledge they don't indicate on the brass that it is +p or not. I really like their light magnum series.
The reason I ask about the 6.5 WSSM is it was the big speculation that Winchester was going to chamber the WSM in 6.5. Instead they did the 25 WSSM. A round which I am relly liking. I have one in the shorter barrelled lightweight super shadow(not the the Ulta shadow I had previously thought, It came with the ultra tag though.) I have been getting typically around 100 fps lower than factory velocities with it's shorter barrel. I can easily duplicate and exceed factory specs by handloading with Vihtavuori. I am now looking to get or build an accurate rifle in this caliber to further testing with it. I think it has 1500 yd potential.
Although I am not much of a magnum man, I have really gotten twisted up inside about getting or building a heavy barreled 7WSM/7RSAUM. I get such great results from my little 7x57 in a heavy barrel I'm thinking that if I step up a couple of power levels this could be the next 2000yd round. The recoil is manageable and it is one very efficient round. Come to think of it the 7x57 was really the first 2k round...just not as accurate back in 1898. The 7mm is just about as efficient as it gets. My 7x57 shooting berger 168's @ 2600 Vs. a 300 WSM shooting silvertips @2900 I only had to go up 3 clicks over what the WSM did for 300 yds. I had mine zeroed at 4.75" high @100 to get dead on at 300 yd. and the 300WSM had to hold at 4" high @100 to get dead on.
So, pertaining to the post and not my stuff, my synopsis is a light/medium 6.5 or 7mm for 1k and/or a 7WSM/RSAUM for up to 2k. But, nonosense has given some good backround on 6mm's coming into the 1000 yd arena. But you would need a 1-7.5"/1-8" twist for those. -Good luck ContacFront, keep us posted with developments
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
Nononsense,
Topics like this are meant to be long winded. Thank you for taking the time to post. That goes for everyone one also.
I think it is down to the 6.5x284 or the straight 284. I am already in the hunt for a beater donor action. *evil grin*
Question. For the straight 284 is it just 6.5 x 284 brass necked up to 7mm?
T'other way Senor! The .284 Win. case was first on the scene, then we necked it up and down throughout the whole scale. When the 6.5-284 really took off in the 1,000 yard game, Lapua and Norma joined the fray with cases. Hornady now makes them as well.
I suppose that if you really wanted Lapua, Norma or Hornady .284 cases, you could neck them up. But in my opinion, the Winchester cases are nearly as good without the effort of necking up.
Best.
Well, I guess this one will be long also. Here's an update on the 6.5 x 47 Swiss cases:
HOT NEWS--6.5x47 Lapua Samples Arrive Today:
A couple dozen sample 6.5x47 cases arrived today via airfreight from Finland. Christmas came early. Powder capacity is 46.9-47.0 grains H20 and the cases have LARGE Primer Pockets. We've only had the samples for a few hours as this is written. The brass looks great--very consistent with extremely well-finished primer pockets and flash holes. We did not have a tubing mic handy, but the neckwall thickness looks very uniform.
We weighed 15 cases. Right out of the box, untrimmed, the 6.5x47 brass proved extremely consistent weight-wise. Weight Extreme Spread was 0.5 grains, with an SD of 1.708 grains. Recorded weights were: 159.3, 159.5, 159.0, 159.4, 159.4, 159.1, 159.3, 159.1, 159.2, 159.1, 159.0, 159.5, 159.4, 159.2. Run-out, measured at the shoulder, was under .001" (one-thousandth). On most of the cases, the needle did not move past the half-way point between thousandths markers. Very impressive.
The rest of the story: http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html
DTAC 115 VLD (Sierra Tubb Special)
This is a new bullet, originally crafted by Sierra for David Tubb. He used it, in a one-off 7.5 twist Schneider barrel, to win Camp Perry in 2004. But tests have shown it stabilizes just fine at 3000 fps in a 1:8 barrel. At the current time, the bullet is available only from Zediker (Superior Shooting Systems). This bullet holds the NRA National High Power Long Range Rifle record of 1450/1450 the first (and only) perfect score ever fired (2004 Camp Perry).
Estimated BC = .585 above 2850 fps
sandwarrior,
The 7mm RSAUM or similar cartridges, when loaded to 3000 FPS with the 180 gr. Berger VLD's, will be right on the ragged edge of trans-sonic/sub-sonic velocity at ICAO Sea Level for 2000 yards. Any changes in atmospheric conditions and all hell could break loose with bullets going through the paper sideways. Besides, it's equivalent to 83 MOA (343 clicks) of up with a 300 yard zero... That makes 1,000 yards sound like a piece of cake.
If it was up to me, I'd move up the scale in case volume and get a better handle on the distance with a fair chance of getting to the target straightaway. 7mm RUM with a 34" barrel sounds about right. [:D]
Best.
You could likely get a 7mm rem mag to really shine if you wanted to. But for 1000yds, a few of us were looking very hard at the RSAUM 7mm and even changing it to an Ackley Improved for positive headspace and case life.
The 6.5x55 or even the 6.5x55AI will be nicer to the throat than the 6.5x284 will. When looking at the case, you wouldn't think it was all that harsh, but the BR guys who have used it have stated what we have heard on various threads. It does infringe on throat integrity faster than you would think it should. My 8 twist 4 groove 6.5x55AI has gone .290MOA at 200yds with the 140gr a-max thus far and seems to be very workable as far as a paper puncher and with my bullet splash just under the doe's chest at 619yds with a guess of where to holdover in the R2 NXS reticle has shown me it is a super flat little ditty to boot.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?