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Win's. 7mmWSM vs. Rem's. 7mmSAUM
roysclockgun
Member Posts: 310 ✭✭✭
Any suggestions on which of these two may come out being the best, all around cartridge? I see by the offerings in the latest Jerrys Sports Center dealer's catalog, that very few rifles are being offered in the SAUM loading, while more and more are offered in the WSM cartridges. Is SAUM going away?
roysclockgun
roysclockgun
Comments
Eric
allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net
All American Arms Company
www.galleryofguns.com
VIP Code: AAAC
Veteran Owned and Operated
BTW, I only own Remington rifles - even with my bias for them, I still feel the WSMs will be successful.
RH
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
roysclockgun
A lot of things were accomplished with these two rounds that without guys like JustC going out and seeing what they will do at 1000 yds will go by the wayside. I haven't been a fan of the 7 Rem Mag since I owned one. I do, however, feel that the natural ballistic efficiency of the 7mm bullet is better complimented by either of these cases.
It's a shame that corporations react to market need instead of act. They did a good job at least of fielding the rounds. But, both cases came out in pretty much strictly hunting varieties...try buying either in a super long range varmint (SLRV)setup. A lot of companies offer these set-ups in 300 Win Mag, 30-06, 308, 25-06,
25 WSSM. Anyone that shoots would know there is a population of us that wants to see how far it will consistently hit. So wouldn't you think it would make sense to at least offer some level of SLRV in your new round? -Just my thoughts
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
Well since the general "shooting public" are the ones who must get involved in order for a cartridge to become a hit and therefore be around for a while, they must be given something not too esoteric to sink their teeth into. This as in, light recoil for ladies, small children and anyone recoil sensitive...Very low report and handy to use to take varmints in densely populated areas...Muzzle loader qualified with the trajectory of a 300WinMag!
The short mags really have not offered much, save for a slightly shorter bolt throw. Not surprisingly, that is not a big deal to many shooters. Sure, in a mountain rifle, one can save a couple ounces by utilizing a short action, but I am not convinced that a feature like that can carry a new cartridge for long.
Winchester and Remington really did butt heads on these short magnums and by so doing, split the buyers in a market where buyer share means everything.
I confess being one of the great unwashed masses who focuses on muzzle velocity, which to me, translates into flatter trajectory and thus being less concerned with bullet drop within my personal range restrictions. For me, that is enough. Perhaps there are just too many 7RemMags that have been doing a good job since 1962 and can't be displaced by a short mag. Maybe not. Time will tell.
Truth is for the garden variety hunter, who again keeps the hunting arms industry in business, there have not been too many really great strides in cartridges since 1906.
If the 30-06 were not introduced in 1906 and some genius brought that round out today, the gun rag writers would go crazy, falling over one another touting that one. The 30-06 would be introduced in every model that could handle the pressures and by every arms maker.
I think you are correct "sandwarrior" there simply has not been enough "gain" shown lately to cause the "shooting public" to forsake the calibers that have been doing the job for them for such a long time.
roysclockgun
They are every bit as efficient in harvesting game,..so some other factors come into play. One is that there is no belt for headspacing issues which match chambers eliminate. Second is that a short action is more rigid. The short mag is here to stay and all one needs to look at to see that is the PPC cases. They were the original "short and fat" and still pretty much run the BR game for 100-300yds.
The only thing which will make one win over the other is marketing. the 243 hit the market prior to the 6mm rem, and hence the 243 is the standard even though the 6mm offers flatter trajectory and more power on impact. Remington went with the RUM first and the only reason I can see is that they figured the magnum market was already established but the RUM offered more power and no belt. This pre-emptive move could have been genious, but time will tell. Either way, BR matches contain multitudes of variations and wildcats based on both WSM's and SAUM's, so they will continue to survive as wildcats if nothing else. The major obstacle for either company is to convince the high end brass manufacturers to tool up for the production of them. the WSM has inroads with Hornady and Lapua thus far and if remington can throw some well spent money at these companies, then the race will be on. I personally am looking hard at the SAUM in my next chamber (although it will probably be a wildcat on the original case).
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
roysclockgun
Remington is producing 4 rifle models in the 300 RSAUM.
But, as stated above, Remington is also chambering rifles in the WSM models as well but Winchester/Browning has not reciprocated in kind.
Remington and Winchester used to exchange cartridges and chamberings casually until 2 years ago when there was a falling out and they each decided not to chamber any rifles in competing cartridges. Talk about an idiotic move... My guess is some prima donna executive V.P. got his underwear in a bind and formulated that piece of stupidity. Fortunately, they got it straightened out for the time being.
When chambered in a 2.8" short action, the RSAUM is the winner in velocity and efficiency, hands down. And no matter how you decide to slice it, efficiency plays a bigger part in this war than folks give credit. Both cartridges are better suited for use in an intermediate style receiver which has a box length of 3.0" to 3.15" long (think Mauser). It's the same mistake that has been repeated by Remington with the 6.5 and 350 Remington Mags., Jamison and his line of 'short mags', and John Lazzeroni with his version of the 'short mags'. I don't recall the exact details but I think that this could include the Heavy Express Mags (short version) also.
The drawback of chambering in short actions usually stimulates the reaction of putting them in a long action which then results in the battle of 'why do that when we can just use the (supply your choice) cartridge'. It has been a never ending, viscious circle for who knows how many wasted years. The only thing that this conflict has spawned is more fodder for the gunscribes. They are just as bad as the so called newspaper journalists, just in a different slant. None of them report the real news, they write what makes them money but isn't necessarily true and no one trusts any of them anymore, anyway.
I am always aware that velocity sells. That is, except where accuracy is the prime motivation for doing the shooting, such as long range benchrest (1,000 yd.) or F-Class. For years the .308 and the .300 Win. Mag. dominated the circuits having followed the .300 H & H Mag. Wildcats were encouraged and a whole new wave of cartridges entered the industry but only within the limited circles of the LR shooter. The 6.5-284 changes that a lot. Not only did a large percentage of shooters switch but we even have real brass being made by at least 3 companies currently. The best part is that the market opened up and the 6.5-284 made it into the mainstream where the hunters have picked it up and embraced it. The only problem is that time passed and the full powder loads wore barrels out too fast for the liking of some shooters so they started cutting back on loads. Well, fortunately there is a node at those lower pressures and velocites so all is well. But with the loads being used, it was obvious that we could accomplish the same goals by using a very simple cartridge that has been available for over 100 years, the 6.5 x 55 Swede. The circles closes.
Why the history babbling? Don't count these cartridges out just yet. There's going to be some more sorting out but these cartridges are good no matter what the gun writers say and no matter what the uninformed, inexperienced naysayers blabber. We've had the time of discovery when we all get to play with the 'new toy' and now the newness has worn off and we're getting into the negative stage of the life of these cartridges. Wait a while and you'll see that there will be a slow but deliberate comeback with a couple of the chamberings falling by the wayside. Thank God there are wildcatters who will continue to spend their own money developing better and different cartridges.
The 325 WSM IS the 300 WSM necked up to handle the .323 bullets. But it's a bit unfair to compare it to the 8 x 57 Mauser cartridge which carries all the hatred of war with Germany to ever make it successful in this country. The same things gets batted around when we discuss the 280 Rem. vs. 7mm Rem. Express and the reverse, .244 Rem. vs. the 6mm Rem. "Americans don't like metric cartridges." There are several others in the list but we seem to developed a liking for the 7mm Rem. Mag... I think that we Americans haven't taken to the 8mm simply because we already have two other great cartridges in the .300 Win. Mag. and the .338 Win. Mag. and we have a good selection of bullets in each diameter. The .323 diameter isn't wanted even though we have a similar situation between the .270 Win. and the .280 Rem. as far as close spacing is concerned. Then there is the lack of selection in the bullet department. Sierra surprised everyone a while back by launching an 8mm Sierra MatchKing. I personally think that the 8mm Rem. Mag. is short changed.
The gunwriters wet themselves any time there's even the slightest hint of something new and different. They have been recycling the same stack of articles year after year and getting paid for it so a new cartridge is real news whether it proves to be successful or not. They get to write at least 4 different articles on a new release without repeating themselves. Then they get to recycle those for the next 10 years or so with only slight modifications.
Anyway, the cases have been wildcatted up and down and the primary suppliers have made their choices and we get to choose how we want to handle them, if at all. The basic ideas are good ones, we just need to make some adjustments over time.
This is really long so I apologize, it got out of hand. I'll climb down now...
Best.
One 8mm that used to be pretty popular was the .32 Remington special. Essentially an 8mm (.321) in a 30-30 case. A lot of old deer hunters have them around up here in Minnesota, although I never saw one growing up in NV.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
sandwarrior, are you thinking of the .32 Winchester Special? A lot of old woods hunters did like that round. It appears to have the same ballistics as does the 30-30, but as you say, it used a .321 bullet. I believe that it was better suited to black powder cartridges and finally died out. Sort of apples and oranges to compare that to the .323/8mm which has been used in a few high pressure cartridges, none of which seemed to have caught on. The 8mm had every chance to really take off when so many war trophy German Mausers were re-chambered to 8mm-06 or even to 8mm-06 Ackley Improved. Fact is when range tested neither of these cartridges could do anything that the 30-06 couldn't do as well, or better. I am not convinced that the lack of popularity in the 8mm cartridges has anything to do with hatred toward the Third Reich! Rifleman will use a cartridge designed and sold by the Devil himself, if same produces desired results. The .323 or 8mm bullet has just not been introduced in a cartridge that was a world beater.
roysclockgun
You're right it was the Winchester not Remington...I must have been still sleeping when I wrote that. In a modern firearm with smokeless powder it is a decent producing round...certainly not in the class of the 8mm, but then again the 8mm Mauser is not exactly in the same class as the .325 nor is it in the same class as the 8 Rem Mag.
As far as people not liking the Mauser and relating it to Germany I still know people who feel that way. It may not be an overwhelming factor but it is a factor. Someone else mentioned that American's have a strong feeling against the metric system. I think that too is a factor. I know Aircraft mechanics, where SAE is the standard, complain like no yesterday about metric fasteners.
Regarding the 8mm-06 it will out do ANYTHING the 30-06 wished it could do if it was loaded up to it's potential in a modern safe firearm. I consistently load up my 8mm Mausers higher than what my 2 30-06's will do... any day of the week. But,that is another stigma old Mausers have to live up to is that some are customized outside their design limits i.e. M92, M93, M95's. Any well built M98 type will handle anything that a modern round can dish out.
Getting back to the subject of the Short Mags I reiterate that the other factors are usually ignored by the general mass in favor of the typical, "how fast does it go?" syndrome. I haven't ever felt that belted mags produce the same natural accuracy as beltless cases. People who use the 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag in competition usually get their brass to headspace either on the shoulder or equally on the shoulder and the belt. There is no way that headspacing on the belt will produce competition accuracy equal to a shoulder headspaced round. If velocities are equal using less space and powder I think that will produce less recoil. The weight of the rifle will factor into that also.
The reason I stress accuracy is when you know what the max limitation of your hunting rifle is you have a better chance at making that shot that is two hundreds yards beyond your previous limitation. Provided of course you take all factors and make sure they are up to par.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
Oh yeah, my nephew was able to get a deer yesterday with the K98k that I built for him. Just a mild custom job. 8mmMauser using a 170gr Speer semi-Spitzer, he hit the deer in the shoulder and anchored same on the spot. Paced off the shot was 176 yards. Previously all his shots were under 100 yards, so he is happy about stretching his personal best. I like showing him these posts, because he is already getting flak from his hunting friends regarding his "obsolete" cartridge. I told him when I gave him the rifle, not to take a back seat to anyone concerning the 8x57 round.
roysclockgun
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics?
I agree, JustC. The way to discover which round is best for hunting, is to ask someone who has taken deer with any round!! My granddad swore by his long obsolete .25Remington, as a great killer of deer.
I have not tested my nephew's 8x57 round with a chrony. I only gave him the rifle two weeks ago, and with work, he barely had time to zero the thing. I loaded IMR4064 behind 170gr Speer semi-spitzers until I reached 51gr. of propellant. He was getting very good groups through the Third Reich K98k barrel (inside 2" at 100 yards). I have the OAL out to 3.044" for that old military throat. The cases are not showing any signs of too high pressure. No flattened primers or hard extraction. I used Winchester cases and Winchester standard large rifle primers. It was with this round that he took his deer yesterday. I doubt he'll need anything hotter? When we get a mild day, I want to check out the MV.
roysclockgun
If your going 51 gr. of 4064 behind a 170 gr. pill that would put you around the 2750-2800 mark. I have chrono'd those loads. I also use 50 gr. behind a 200 gr. speer for 2600 fps. Those are some pretty hot loads for the 8mm but I don't see pressure signs on the case with the 4064. When I start going hot with 4895 I see pressure signs clearly right away.
re obsolete:
JustC has it right...peoples way of thinking is what's obsolete. Roy, just take any "old Mauser" you come across and load it with it's design load, crank the sights up to 2000m or 1500m and see if the round will make it that far. Every one of my 8mm's has...so I wouldn't call them obsolete.
One thing we modern day kids are way more exposed to are good or better optics. I never really learned how to shoot open sights until I went into the military. I never got decent with blade sights until about ten years ago. When I purchased my K-31 1 yr. ago,is when I started putting same hole groups together with open sights. Obsolesence seems to me to be a marketing term to sell something that may newer and easier...not necessarily better or more effective.
I recently purchased a 7mm WSM (in heavy barrel) specifically because it provides more power than does my 7X57. I think that because of the 7mm ballistics this is going to work well. Believe it or not this idea is more than 100 years old, The 7x57 was the first 2000 yd rifle used in combat that way. My way of thinking may not be the same as JustC's in that I'm going for the most efficient bullet to get me out to 2K as opposed to a strong step up in power (338). Although with a muzzle brake the step up may be worth it in the long run. As eventually the 7mm will be limited by how much power you can put behind it. Anyhow, before I ramble too long, this has been a great topic.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
I will let you know how close is your estimate, when I chrony the rifle. Your estimate, however, sounds like just where I would want to be with that cartridge/bullet weight. IMO, the nephew can go after anything in N.America with that load. The only difference that I would make in the load is if he goes for bull elk, at which point, I would test various bonded bullets that are more likely to hold together better. The 180gr GrandSlam, in my 30-06 Tikka did an excellent job for me, at 304 yards on a bull. Probably that fatter 8mm 170gr bullet could do the same.
How much gain would one expect, using a 170gr bullet with 8x57 vs 325WSM? My first thought would be that the 8x57 shooter would simply have to restrict his max range on elk to perhaps 50 yards shorter range then the shooter using 325WSM (of course factor in that all other considerations are equal.) With the 170gr Speer, he is likely to get through and through wounds on any whitetail around here, within 250 yards. In 50 years of chasing whitetails, the heaviest one that I have killed (all on the east coast), was perhaps 250 lbs. on the hoof, and that, a somewhat rare non-typical older buck.
roysclockgun
In the last post you were wondering about gain of .325 over 8x57. I only shoot the 8mm so all I can give is opinion. Where the 8mm drops significantly above 200 gr. I'm thinking that that is where the .325 will hold velocity better. Meaning the velocity split will about equal up to 200 gr. then the .325 will show less dropoff as you go up into the 220-250 gr. range. That is just an opinion...not necessarily true. I do know that the 8x57 will still launch a 220 gr. at 2400 fps.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>
Am I missing something here, as I really doubt that you were sleeping.
I could have sworn that Remington made a 32 caliber a while back, right along with the 25, 30 Remington !!!!
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at.
I have to say I was thinking of the .32 Winchester special. A friend of mine at works' dad has one. So he bought one and has taken quite a few deer with it up in the north woods. I never went into the research of the .32 remington...based on the .25 and .30 Remington case. I imagine it too was chambered in the Model 8 Remington pump. Probably a good round out to medium distances. Not a lot of kick and a lot of effectiveness at the ranges most people shot at for deer. Funny thing though that that is the case that the 6.8SPC is based off of...not to mention the dimensions are pretty close to what the .276 Pederson was also.
We have the second amendment so that all the rest are secure....UNK>