Pushing the 45 acp limits

DENWA

I see these "Super cartridges" based on the 45acp.( 45+p+, 45detonics, 45 super, 460 rowland, etc etc.

I have no interest in blowing my hand up.

I would much rather hit small groups with a slow piece lead.

My question is what is the weaker point, the 45Acp case or is it the pistol? If you were to accidentally double charge a case with Bullseye what is likely to fail?

Let's say 1911 frame. What is the failure mechanism? Does the barrel burst or slide crack?

AGAIN, this is just for info purposes.

Thanks

B17-P51

Perry Shooter is probably more qualified than I to answer this but I will get the ball rolling. I can say personally, of the cartriges you mentioned, the 45 super is a seperate case, not a hopped up acp load by itself. I can also say the recoil spring is critical in absorbing the forces generated by the cartridge and should be changed accordingly, to the load, even in a "regular" acp loading of various bullet weights and velocities. And lastly I believe the frame would be the first component to fail from gross misuse. How about that Karl?

Edit: Peabo you are right about the case, I didn't read the question all the way. I was thinking barell, slide, or frame as to which component would get tired first.

peabo

Take what I say here with a grain of salt because I am not an expert in this area.

In my opinion, the weak area is the 45acp case. Meaning that the case will be the first to fail. This failure is caused by the unsupported area of the case, which is caused by the design of the 1911 barrel. Does this make sense, or am I talking out my *.

I am under the impression that some of the other 45 caliber cartridges are made using 30-06 brass (or similar) that has been shortened to 45acp length. This brass is stronger in the web area allowing higher pressure loads. With this method, the case has less volume so higher pressures result when using the same amount of powder. You must reduce the powder used and work up from there.

Higher pressure loads will also batter the frame up, so stronger recoil springs are a must. A buffer is also used to reduce the effect of the battering.

Again I will say that I believe that the case will fail first using original 45acp brass.

Someone with more experience in this area may be able to clarify this for you, because I don't really have any 'hands-on' experience in this load development area.


Thanks---Peabo

CHEVELLE427

DON'T KNOW WHAT POWDER IT HAD.

this was from factory reloads



this happen to my 1911A1 25+ years ago. all the gun got was a small ding above the firing pin. the small parts came out the bottom were my had was. felt like i just shot my 44mag when this happen.
the one that fired set off the one left in the mag

Hawk Carse

The first thing to fail in an overloaded 1911 (and most all tilt-lock autos) is the case web which ruptures over the feed ramp and blows out the magazine and splits the grips. The rest of the gun is not damaged, or not much. Chevelle shows one of that sort.

In the early days of overloaded .38 Supers in IPSC, metal backed grips like the Pachmayr or Breskovitch were popular to protect the hands. You could get plates to mount behind your favorite grips.

Sometimes it is not a powder overload but a defective case or one overworked by resizing after firing in an oversize chamber.

A really heavily overloaded 1911 will burst the barrel and either break or bulge the slide. In Hatcher's Notebook two 1911s wrecked like that are shown. One was returned from the field. Springfield Armory blew up the other to find out what it took. What it took was 12 grains of Bullseye when 4.6 was a standard load.

I have seen two like that in my area. One was owned by a very inept handloader who most likely double charged a round. The barrel was split and the slide bulged out all around the chamber area. Never saw the guy again and do not know if the frame was usable.
The other was blown up by a round of bulk commercial reloaded ammunition bought by the county Sherriff's Department for practice by deputies. The barrel and slide were fragmented and the frame distorted.

Neither of the above two guys were much hurt apart from stinging hands from the magazine blowing out.

What I don't know for sure is the dividing line between a blown casehead and ruined magazine and a demolished gun. I expect a double charge would be likely to wreck the piece.

MIKE WISKEY

"The first thing to fail in an overloaded 1911 (and most all tilt-lock autos) is the case web which ruptures over the feed ramp and blows out the magazine and splits the grips. The rest of the gun is not damaged, or not much. Chevelle shows one of that sort"... +3, personal experience.

RCrosby

Don't ask why (I now plead innocence by way of youth.) but I one time fired a .410 shot shell in my ACP. (Yes I had to take the barrel out, chamber the round and reassemble. Not recommended.) When I pulled the trigger the lower tail end of the shell blew out sending gas into the magazine well. Would have been o.k. (I think) if the magazine hadn't been in place. As it was the Pacmayr grips bulged out significantly. Stung, but no permanent damage to me or the rest of the pistol. Had the grip panels been wood or hard plastic I suspect that permanent damage to my right hand could have resulted. Not a pleasant prospect.

perry shooter

Hello Just to add my view . You have gotten some excellent advise and the pictures are also right on most 1911 kabooms I have seen were from the bottom of the case blowing out just ahead of the case head over the feed ramp area There are 4 factors involved here . The feed ramp is cut too deep "someone has gotten happy with a dremel tool " or in the case of some Kimbers The barrels made in Asia were out of spec's. #2 the case was over loaded "double charged or hot rod-ed" #3 the disconnector was too short and the slide was not fully closed when the hammer dropped and #4 The one I had happen to me TWICE in over 300,000 rounds before I found out the cause. Be careful to watch for undersize bullets .450 and thin walled casses REM-UMC . This will let the bullet push down in the case when the nose of the bullet hits the feed ramp on loading . I found this out when the CMP stopped issuing BALL ammo at Camp Perry and I started loading my first Jacketed 230 grain ball loads I had loaded over 250,000 round of lead and never had a problem. Let me say when a case lets go and it blows the grips off the magazine bottom out, the other cases splatter off the ground it does get your attention. Lucky it was not a double charge as it did NO damage to the great designed 1911 just my ego after the second time I did some quality control trouble shooting and found with less then 4 pounds the bullet would go down in the case to flush with case mouth . Changed brand of brass No REMINGINGTON or TZZ and also made sure bullets were at least .451. A double charge will some times set off the first or more loaded rounds in the magazine from the high pressure gases [:(!][V][xx(] not a good thing can swell both the slide and frame The pistol is toast. Now for the long term damage of heavy loads
The recoil spring need to match the load a too heavy of a spring for a light load will not let the slide fully cycle = feed & function problems but no damage. On the other hand a too weak of a spring will let the slide batter the frame and may shear the bottom lugs off the barrel. Again not a good thing. Hope this helps "PRAISE THE HARD-BALL GUN"

DENWA

.410 shell? Can't wait to tell this one to they guys at the club....

Seriously,

Thanks for the info/stories. Really makes you respect what we do here.