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Handloader June 08 issue
joes
Member Posts: 484 ✭✭✭
In an artical in the June issue the writer spoke of a load he shot mule deer with. I struck me as under powered and wanted to hear other views. He had a 10 mm Kimber auto and he shot the deer at a distance of 100 yards- Now if memory serves me correctly he was shooting that load at 1100 FPS with a 180 bullet, which he double lung shot. How much speed would be lost at that distance and should he have taken a shot that falls short of what sounds like an acceptable level?
Comments
The ballistics, you can get 1300 fps from the 10mm with 180gr bullets and even more with a 6 inch barrel like the Witness Hunter. I think a better load would be 1200 fps and 200gr.. When I run either of them through Hornady ballistics calculator you still have more than 1000 fps at 100 yards. The cartridge can deliver but can the gun and the shooter.
Old article by Cooper that I lost a long time ago where he talked about cartridges for deer hunting, his criteria.
min. bullet dia. .400
min. bullet weight 200 gr.
min. velocity 1000 fps.
The article indicated that .45 auto did not meet this criteria but in the right hands would be enough gun.
Now mule deer and even some northern whitetails can go over 200 pounds. So I think even Cooper was not thinking about big deer.
You can get a lot of opinions about what is enough gun, if people are not tired of the questions. There was a recent thread about how 32-20 was enough gun for deer.
Put the bullet in the kill zone is rule one.
Enough cartridge for the conditions is often contemplated. Sometimes too much, sometimes not enough. If the firearm can produce reasonable numbers I think it's not un-ethical to take the shot if you know you can be on the mark. But that takes practice for which proof is necessary. At least yourself to be ethical. Unfortunately, the DNR only looks at rounds capable and not hunters capable. I would take a good shot with a .40 cal pushed hard and shooting straight than a .300 WM shooter who flinched to the tune of not hitting the broadside of a barn @ 20 yds.(or even 300).
So, bottom line to me here is shot placement is most key. If he can hit with the .40 cal bullet at that yardage it's good enough. That bullet has the energy to kill the deer. If he can't hit with a bigger cartrige it doesn't matter. He needs to go back and do some practicing.
Joes,
Enough cartridge for the conditions is often contemplated. Sometimes too much, sometimes not enough. If the firearm can produce reasonable numbers I think it's not un-ethical to take the shot if you know you can be on the mark. But that takes practice for which proof is necessary. At least yourself to be ethical. Unfortunately, the DNR only looks at rounds capable and not hunters capable. I would take a good shot with a .40 cal pushed hard and shooting straight than a .300 WM shooter who flinched to the tune of not hitting the broadside of a barn @ 20 yds.(or even 300).
So, bottom line to me here is shot placement is most key. If he can hit with the .40 cal bullet at that yardage it's good enough. That bullet has the energy to kill the deer. If he can't hit with a bigger cartrige it doesn't matter. He needs to go back and do some practicing.
Not to beat this to death but I've missed or made bad shots with Magnum cartridges and never recovered the animal. I felt terrible, looked for hours, and spent the next day looking again instead of hunting.
My buddy hunts with a .223 never misses never had a problem.
Point is SHOT Placement.
The argument about shot placement is ALWAYS proposed by people who can not handle any recoil. There will be times when the shot looks perfect, but the animal might take a half step, there might be an unseen twig, whatever. If you can not handle a cartridge that will do the job effectively, especially with a BAD HIT, you would be better off if you took up knitting.
As an outfitter, I refuse to let anybody hunt with anything smaller than a .257 Roberts in centerfire rifle, a .44 magnum in handgun, or a .50 caliber in muzzleloader.
The 10mm does not generate enough energy to reliably kill whitetails, large or small. It also does not meet the requirements to be a legal deer hunting cartridge according to North Dakota Game and Fish statutes.
The argument about shot placement is ALWAYS proposed by people who can not handle any recoil. There will be times when the shot looks perfect, but the animal might take a half step, there might be an unseen twig, whatever. If you can not handle a cartridge that will do the job effectively, especially with a BAD HIT, you would be better off if you took up knitting.
As an outfitter, I refuse to let anybody hunt with anything smaller than a .257 Roberts in centerfire rifle, a .44 magnum in handgun, or a .50 caliber in muzzleloader.
swearengine,
First, the 10mm does meet the requirement of the North Dakota fish and game for a handgun cartridge. It wouldn't be my choice but it is legal. Heres the site: http://gf.nd.gov/regulations/deer/index.html#firearms
Edit: I should have mentioned that the 10mm would not be my choice in my first post.
Second, I don't care what you hit a deer with, if it isn't in the right place it won't kill a deer. No magic amount of power will do the job. You need enough power in the right place.
The argument that you need to punish yourself with recoil is something I think is hurting the shooting sports industry. The suggestion that kids who don't want to handle 30-06 recoil take up knitting is exactly what keeps kids out. Kids need to be encouraged to shoot rifles that don't hurt. I've watched too many kids at our deer rifle sight-in's" get pushed by their fathers to 'man-up' and take the recoil. When they could be shooting a .243 that doesn't knock a 140 lb. kid into yesterday. Not to mention the bruise I see forming on a lot of them. Any modern 6mm is enough cartridge for deer.
As an outfitter, I ask that you consider talking to the people who shoot 6mm Rems, .243's, .240 Wbys, and even 6PPC's about how well a deer gets killed by them. You may be opening up your options as to who will come to you for hunting guidance. Meaning I hope if you consider it, it would be a positive for you.
p.s. I love the .257 Roberts, BTW. The best 'all-around' cartridge out there I think.
First, I am a handgun hunter. Have hunted exclusively with handguns for over 12 yrs. More recently (last 6-7) yrs I hunt only with revolvers. In my experience hunting with other handgun hunters, the ethical question revolves more around the shooter than the caliber. I have the good fortune to have personal friends who can shoot handguns with unbelieveable accuracy. I cannot, but some can. To illustrate this point, one friend took his M97 FA 357 revolver (open sights) and hit a metal target on my range 3 out of 4 shots. The target was a 2" (point to point) diamond shape target @ 96 yds.
If the individual knows his firearm and is capable of making the shot accurately, my opinion is that the 180 gr 10mm would double lung a deer at 100 yds.
My favorite hunting handgun is a 41 mag revolver. It is capable of 2" groups @ 100 yds with me shooting it over sandbags. Making good shots on deer sized animals @ 100 yds or more are rather easy once one puts in enough practice and knows his firearm. Hitting the chest area of a deer at that distance is quite easy.
My mistake, I had not received the 2008 proclamation and I took my information from the 2007 proclamation which read a handgun cartridge must have a case length of 1 inch to meet the minimum requirement.
I am not saying power is the magic, the bullet should be placed in the proper zone, but when a bad hit is made; and they are made; enough power will make the animal sick enough for the hunter to catch up and make the killing shot.
I do not believe in punishing yourself with recoil, never said I did. As for beginning shooters, I recommend what I shoot myself, .257 Roberts, 6.5x55 Mauser, 7x57 Mauser. All of these cartridges generate more than 1000 foot pounds of energy which is adequate to kill deer and recoil is minimal. The other thing with beginning shooters, the reloader in the family can reload practice rounds for the shooter which do not beat the snot out of them. When the beginning shooter practices with these rounds, it builds confidence to point where they believe their rifle does not kick, then when they are hunting the reloader switches the practice rounds for hunting rounds and we all know wen you take the shot you do not hear the report or feel the recoil. My father-in-law did this for his wife and daughter; both of these women are 5'1" and 105 to 115 lbs. They both shoot 7x61 Sharpe and Hart rifles and my wife usually kills 10-12 deer with her rifle per year.
As to the 6mm and 22 centerfire cartridges, I have been called in to help retrieve more deer than I care to count because the shooter did not make an excellent shot and the deer ran off. All of these so called hunters would have been better off with a proper cartridge or better yet, taken up knitting. Just because it is legal does not make it ethical. I had one hunter who in his home state of New York uses primarily a 6mm Rem. When he hunted with me, he used his .280 Rem. If my opinions on what minimum cartridges I will allow have driven away some potential clients, I do not feel any loss, I would rather have a dead deer then a protracted chase and tracking expedition with the possibility of a lost deer.
My favorite hunting handgun is a 41 mag revolver. It is capable of 2" groups @ 100 yds with me shooting it over sandbags. Making good shots on deer sized animals @ 100 yds or more are rather easy once one puts in enough practice and knows his firearm. Hitting the chest area of a deer at that distance is quite easy.
I agree that 41 mag makes for an excellent deer gun and the gentleman who insist on 44 mag. should consider accepting 41 mag. as well. I have to disagree with you about the ease of hitting deer at 100 yards with a handgun. Few own Freedom Arms revolvers so they do not have a revolver that will shoot small groups at 100 yards. Shooting a revolver in the field is not as easy as shooting off the bench. Even off the bench it is tricky to rest the gun and not get something torn up by the gas out of the gap. I guess you are thinking that the shooter will be shooting from a stand with a prepared rest for the revolver. Misjudging the distance to the target by 25 yards in the 75 to 125 yard range is going to cause the impact to be of by 2 to 4 inches and the windage due to cross wind will be worse. I guess what I am trying to say is "no it is not easy" You will have to take a lung shot but you are not always present a broadside shot so you have to think twice about terminal performance, can you count on the bullet getting into the kill zone.
Handgun deer hunting at 100+ yards should be limited to experts, it is not easy even with a Contender but with a revolver or semiauto you really need top of the line equipment and great skill.
I do not disagree with you. Maybe I was a little quick to use the word, "easy." However, my main point is that some shooters are very capable of making that type of hit easily. I do not consider myself in that group, but I know some of them. As I review my prior post, I note that I omitted one detail about my friend's hits with his 357 on my range. He was shooting offhand. (I also did not mention that he is a former champion competitive handgun shooter).
A few weeks ago when I was at his range in Ohio, we were shooting regulation handgun silhoutte targets. Boredom set in after a while and we began to shoot them with 9mm. With my Kimber 4" 9mm I found it not too difficult to consistently hit the pigs (@ 100 meters) even though a material crosswind was blowing. I was resting my elbows on a picnic table, but not using any other support. (The turkeys @ 150 meters were not as easy) I shoot the autos very little so I am not even close to an expert with them. I do not even consider myself a good shot with an auto.
I did not mean to encourage those who do not pratice shooting handguns at hunting distances to take shots that are beyond their ability. However, with pratice many of us can become adequately proficient to make a 100 yd shot at a game animal with a handgun.
Good hunting.
My point is this: what's your carry gun if you bash the 10 for hunting? It sure better be a 454 or better. Those deer aint running at you with a claw hammer or trying to rape your wife.
I always though it was kinda funny that all thsese 'guide' types think you need a .458 or 600 nitro for hunting a 160 lb buck, but their carry gun is a .380 auto or nothing at all!
If it will kill a man, it will kill a deer! You can gut-shoot a deer with your .378 Weatherby and still drop it, but a 10 mm is 2/3 of a .44 and if that don't work for you, you are just plain a bad shot.
Many of us have killed numerous deer throughout the years with bows that generate a whopping 70 foot-pounds (its like throwing a stick at 220 fps), but you some lamo-game department says you need 2500 ft/lbs in a rifle? Uh, okay, that makes a lotta sense.
If you hit 'em in the heart/lungs with any firearm, they die pretty quick. 10mm, 9mm or broadhed
What a TROLL! Most trolls have a shred of truth to their posts but you blow all of the other trolls completely out of the water with your BS. 6 deer with a 10mm and numerous other deer with a broadhead all at 100 yards.
There is IMHO no minimum for deer. if you can shoot it properly, you only need a 222 or 223. I know lots who hunt with these smaller centerfires and do quite well. The thing is not rushing the shot,..just wait until the part you want to perforate is showing, then "place" the bullet in the spot. An organ with a hole in it will cause exanguination where as a "magnum" gut-shot will result in the tracking. If you can kill em with an arrow, they will die with a 222,...ya just gotta put it in the right spot.
My pard and I are going to use a 22-250 (his) and a 220 swift (mine) this year for crop damage permits. I bet I can drop a whitetail deer at 300yds with them. Time to "sort it out"[8D]
Normally I say welcome to the forum when we see new folks around here. I have to say that while swearengine and I share different viewpoints on what is minimum, I would also say I respect his right to his opinion. He did mention a few moderate powered cartridges that in that fact alone make fine cartridges for deer. He expressed that one doesn't need a magnum to hunt deer. And while noted, the 10mm wouldn't be my choice for hunting deer, it can kill a deer. That doesn't mean that many hunters are up to the task with the typical firearms that the 10mm is chambered in.
Bottom line here is we respect each others right to their opinion. And if you disagree with that opinion, state your own. What doesn't work with folks here is attacking them. Peace on this board is a valued thing. On those terms I would welcome you to the forum. I hope you have a lot of good information to add.
old 38-40 WCF rifle cartridge used in the 1873 and 1892 Winchesters.
In their day, that load was considered more than adequate for deer and bagged many things that were much bigger.
If you can hit the target with accuracy at 100 yards with a pistol
and have a load like this, I would never call that man unethical for using it but that is just me.
I would guess that shooting at 100 yards the velocity would be in the 800-900 fps range. I would still say that is adequate if the shot placement is good. I have heard of about 6 deer killed with the
44-40, which is a 200 grain .429 bullet at 1100 fps in factory loads, and within 100-110 yards, I never heard of a one that made it past about 10 feet before it dropped dead.