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What do I do to this rifle to make it a 1000 yder
elkoholic
Member Posts: 5,130
I have always wanted to try some long distance competition. As of late I have converted to a single shot (encore) for most of my hunting needs so my favorite rifle now sits unused. I'd like to convert it into a real long distance rig, but I don't want a 20 lb bench only gun. I still want to be able to lug it around for the occasional long range mule deer if I feel like it. Here she is...(note: left handed, Winchester 70, 300 WM., action is the "new" old style mod 70)
This rifle will currently shoot sub MOA but I average just over that under normal "field" conditions. My best group was 7 shots at .85 at an underground 100yd range.
So I'm looking for recommendations for:
stock (lt hand)
scope
load
should I re-barrel? (don't want to)
is this action even a good place to start? (ie should I just buy something else?)
Any input is greatly appreciated.
This rifle will currently shoot sub MOA but I average just over that under normal "field" conditions. My best group was 7 shots at .85 at an underground 100yd range.
So I'm looking for recommendations for:
stock (lt hand)
scope
load
should I re-barrel? (don't want to)
is this action even a good place to start? (ie should I just buy something else?)
Any input is greatly appreciated.
Comments
The cartridge is perfect and the barrel length will work for the time being until you feel the need to go longer or fatter. I'd start with the 210 gr. Berger VLD/Re-25 or the 190 gr. Berger VLD/Re-22 for 1,000 yard competition from a bench. The recoil from these two long range bullets will be a bit more than most people can enjoy from the prone position.
I suggest that you get a stock designed for either benchrest or prone shooting (F-Class) which will help your shooting significantly. When you want to compete, put the rifle in the competition stock and sight it in. If it's bedded correctly, it won't take long. Then when you want to go hunting, put it back in the stock you have now and sight it in for your hunting load.
D & B Supply
Robertson Composites, Inc.
Manners Stocks
McMillan
Baer Custom Rifles
Scopes are a different story. More is definitely better for 1,000 yards. I prefer the NightForce scopes and yes, they are pricey but they work the best for me. The 8 - 32 or the 12 - 42 are perfect for long range. You can try the Burris or even Leupold if you have to but less than these will not let you achieve your best efforts. Also take a look at the IOR, Swarovski and Schmidt & Bender for their long range scopes.
If you want to shoot prone, more weight will be better. You can look into the F-Class rules for weight and rest restrictions. Bench shooting will require a mechanical front rest that's adjustable as well as a rear bag, neither of which are cheap.
Just an example: http://www.baldeaglemachine.com/
Midway has their Caldwell series of rests that are less expensive than others but they should work for beginners. There are customs that will run $700.00 for the front and $125.00 for the rear if you go for all the gusto. And don't forget to check the auctions and other areas that list stuff 'For Sale'.
Have fun with your decisions!
Best.
If you are getting those kinds of groups, then I'd find a longer range and start seeing what it can do for ya...
Lew,
We have a 300 and 600yd w/ concrete benches here in Gunnison gongs at both
I can also print to scale 24x36 targets those store bought ones are hella hard to see at 600yds [8D]
There is a reason you don't see factory pencil barreled rifles in competition,...they can't compete. Even if you just wish to HIT targets at 1000yds,..you need a great handload, a scope with a lot of elevation capability, a good barrel and so on.
My advice,....new heavy barrel from a reputable manuf. A great peice of glass, a better stock and trigger, and a lot of range time. It takes money and time for a good 1000yd set-up. There simply is no way around that. MHO
If you are getting those kinds of groups, then I'd find a longer range and start seeing what it can do for ya...
I'm pretty nasty out to about 500 yds as is. Beyond that the 3-9 Burris just doesn't cut the mustard.
its a beautiful tool. where did you find it being left handed. ive been searching for left handed rifles for a while?"
This was my college graduation present from my father. I still see the LH version of this SS rifle fairly often in a synthetic stock but I don't see them very often with wood. The blued with wood version is much more common...see below.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104271920
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104708009
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104614897
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=104702592
quote:Originally posted by iwannausername
If you are getting those kinds of groups, then I'd find a longer range and start seeing what it can do for ya...
Lew,
We have a 300 and 600yd w/ concrete benches here in Gunnison gongs at both
I can also print to scale 24x36 targets those store bought ones are hella hard to see at 600yds [8D]
I might have to come visit. I'm not a big fan of the range down here.
My father will never buy me another rifle and I wish I had never sold the one he bought me. I would pay twice what it is worth to have it back. It was not nearly as nice a rifle as your dad bought you, mine was a use model 94 put together from parts by my gunsmith 2nd cousin. If you really want a 1000 yard gun get one made from scratch. If you need cash to do it sell the gun to someone who will sell it back to you when you want it back, actually don't do that just wait until you can afford to do it right. When your dad in not around anymore you will want to take the rifle he bought you out for a trip down memory lane. I have some things that were my dads, like his bronze star but they speak of his life but that old 30-30 speaks of how he respected me, thought I was ready and had earned the right to hunt on my own with my own rifle.
Starting from scratch is still a possibility.
All of you are aware of my thoughts on both competition and proper equipment so let's not be confused over some of my statements regarding this question. Let's go back to the beginning and see what this could be without getting involved in simply buying a whole new rifle.
"I have always wanted to try some long distance competition."
Attempting something without a full-blown financial commitment is an admirable idea. Many of the more recent competition venues were started because someone saw a need to try to involve shooters at introductory levels rather than admitting that you had to invest several thousand dollars in a `race-ready' rifle or pistol. As a couple of quick examples I give you IDPA, Hunter Benchrest and F-Class.
I'll be the first to admit that if you take the word `compete' and break it down into the actual meaning, as being competitive, this discussion would be over. I'm suggesting that what we're being asked about is participation in some competitions and not investing in a custom rifle/glass combination designed and built to be the best in the area of competition chosen. Bear in mind, you're looking at several thousand dollars and as much as 6 months to a year of waiting time for a race-ready rifle to be built.
What has been overlooked by some who suggest running out to buy a Savage Competition Rifle is the fact that neither of these rifles is available in a left-hand version and we are being asked by a left-hand shooter for suggestions. I'm all for the success of Savage and their minimum cost entries into the long-range competition challenges but if they don't field a left-hand rifle, there is no application to this topic.
My original suggestions were based on the request from elkoholic:
".so my favorite rifle now sits unused. I'd like to convert it into a real long distance rig, but I don't want a 20 lb bench only gun. I still want to be able to lug it around for the occasional long range mule deer if I feel like it."
The reference to a 'real long distance rig' isn't going to happen when we're asked keep the balance with a totable deer hunting rifle. The two will not blend very easily.
To quote a long lost hillbilly suggestion, maybe he should `dance with who you brung!'
We aren't talking about perfection and buying a race-ready rifle. We're being asked if there are some modifications that can be made to an existing rifle in order to TRY some competition, maybe not be competitive but to participate some competition. There is no reason to spend thousands of dollars in order to just try something.
First of all, practice shooting at some of the longer distances. If the rifle, ammunition and shooter seem to have some capability, proceed.
With this as the goal, why not add a great scope, get a rear bag, then develop some long range ammunition with the bullets suited for that idea and go shoot some F-Class? Will he have the opportunity to compete? Absolutely. Is he going to be competitive? Probably not. F-Class can shoot off of a bipod and use a rear bag. The .300 Win. Mag. has demonstrated a capability of long-range performance in most of the venues. There is a huge selection of superb bullets for a .30 caliber cartridge. Switch to a good bullet, work up a load and go enjoy yourself.
Some alternatives:
- Get a stock that is better suited to the pursuit of a higher degree of accuracy at the longer ranges.
- Get a tripod-style front rest and a rear bag.
- Tune the Winchester trigger or get a Jewell trigger when necessary.
- Shoot the original barrel since F-Class is a Slow Fire competition.
- Add a new barrel at an appropriate time, later.
- Bed the rifle for competition.
There is certainly no reason that a slightly modified rifle can't be used as an introduction to longer range shooting. If a shooter participates in any of the longer range competitions then changes his mind, the stock, scope and rests can be sold quickly with little loss on any of the known websites that support this type of equipment.
Best.
quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
quote:Originally posted by iwannausername
If you are getting those kinds of groups, then I'd find a longer range and start seeing what it can do for ya...
Lew,
We have a 300 and 600yd w/ concrete benches here in Gunnison gongs at both
I can also print to scale 24x36 targets those store bought ones are hella hard to see at 600yds [8D]
I might have to come visit. I'm not a big fan of the range down here.
Anytime, early mornings seems to be the best time as the winds and mirage are minimal.
Thank you for both of your well thought out posts. I spent some time last night researching the info you had posted. I must admit that I was unaware of the level to which the equipment has been specialized and the financial commitment required to bridge the gap between participate and compete.
Now that I have a base understanding of the issues at hand I will follow your recommendation and upgrade the stock, scope, and optics, add a tripod, a bag, and work on a load.
More later I'm sure.
Nononsense pointed the way to go. Later you can spend lots more money
Take the rifle "AS IS" out and start shooting at extended ranges, i.e. 300-600 yds. Find the most accurate load right now that you can for the rifle. If you can arrange it, get out and shoot on windy days.
Consider ballistics of the .300 WM using a 190 Sierra HPBT, pushed @ 3000 fps. The bullet will drift 7.5" for every mile-an-hour of wind you have on the range at 1000 yds. MOA at that range is 10"(actually 10.47", but I'm rounding for convenience). This means that if you read the wind wrong by as little as 2 mph you have already exceeded the rifles capability to shoot accurately. So the biggest factor here is the shooters ability to read wind. The same factor applies to vertical hold/adjustment. If you have consistent ammunition, your elevation is merely dialed in and you shoot and hit at that range. Depending on conditions. A bullet will fly farther on a hot day, or in higher elevation. 50 fps will make around a 10" difference as well. So you would need to find (or make) super consistent ammunition.
Once you start shooting consistently at 600 yds you can start shooting your rifle out to 1k. I think one of the biggest mistakes a new LR shooter makes is jumping straight to 1k without building a solid foundation of shooting on. Sure you can hit @ 1k. But when conditions change or get tough, you need to be able to read it. A good shooting coach is a great help when it comes to doing this.
Bottom line: my advice is to take this rifle out and build your way out to as far as you can shoot accurately. On a good day you may easily find yourself at 1k. If you feel the need to shoot farther, or consistently @ 1k, then you may want to consider getting into a purpose built 1k gun. But what you have, will for now, fill the bill in getting you into LR shooting.
-good luck
Otherwise, leave your hunting rifle alone and have a good time with it. Experienced shooters will help you extend your zero to the range being shot. If you like shooting Mid- or Long Range under organized conditions...
Step two: Buy a target rifle.
You cannot mung your hunting rifle up into some sort of compromise mule that will be truly satisfactory for humping in the countryside and for comfortably shooting 60 rounds plus sighters on a range.
Don't worry about the left-right business. There are a lot of target shooters in benchrest and F-class who prefer an action with the bolt on the "wrong" side. Try an experiment. Lay down in the floor with your rifle on its bipod and a sandbag under the butt. Now, imagine what it would be like with a right hand bolt. Your otherwise unoccupied right hand would load and unload while your left hand stayed in firing position.