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AA1680 same as W680?

litetriggerlitetrigger Member Posts: 319 ✭✭
edited May 2009 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
I can't get W680 anymore, wonder if AA1680 is the same?
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Comments

  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NO, AA1680 has a faster burn rate than W680. IMR-4227 is close to AA1680.
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  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    litetrigger,


    What are you reloading? It may pay to move to a different powder altogether anyways.

    I will disagree with the IMR 4227 being close to AA1680. It is faster burning and is not double based. Two powders with the same burn speed, but one being double based isn't a good way to find the place to start load work up. find a comparable double base powder in relative speed to compare to AA1680.

    Buying a one pound can is really the simplest way to guarantee the right load safely.
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  • 5mmgunguy5mmgunguy Member Posts: 3,092 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guys,

    I think we are missing the mark here. Litetrigger is looking for a replacement for W680, not AA1680. Litetrigger I have looked through all my reference books and cannot find W680 on any of the burn rate charts. What cartridge are you loading, maybe we can find a replacement for you.
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  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My burn rate chart shows XMP-5744 right next to W680.
    My other post answered the question about if AA1680 was the same.
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  • litetriggerlitetrigger Member Posts: 319 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have been loading 17 gr. W680 40 gr. VMax for 221 fireball (cooper rifle) running out of 680 have had great results! I know that there are other good powders out there, but if 1680 is the same it would save me some trouble. But it looks like that it is not the same
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  • 5mmgunguy5mmgunguy Member Posts: 3,092 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Litetrigger,

    If you are loading 221 Fireball, I load an improved Fireball with a 30 degree shoulder; the following powders have performed great for me. AA1680, N120, and H4198. I am shooting a Cooper too, all three will put three shots into 1/4 inch at 100 yards.
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  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    litetrigger,

    "wonder if AA1680 is the same?"

    In this day and age, it's extremely difficult to make a statement that one certain powder is exactly the same as another powder. Besides the fact that all powders are different in subtle ways, the current manufacturing processes don't allow for absolutes in matching previous burn rates or an established burn rate from lot to lot. We've seen in several instances where a company can be significantly off in getting close to range let alone an match to an existing burn rate.

    The only way to know what burn rate a powder corresponds to is to test it and then compare it to other powders you have tested. They will vary from batch or lot to lot. When a powder is listed as being slightly above or below another powder on a burn rate list, it's impossible to say one is absolutely faster than the other until it's tested. There are too may variances.

    This is a section off a longer list:

    122 - SR-4759 (IMR)
    123 - N120 (Vihtavuori)
    124 - 4227 (IMR)
    125 - RP1 (Bofors)
    126 - R901 (Rottweil)
    127 - H4227 (Hodgdon)
    128 - 5744 XMR (Accurate)
    129 - 410 (Alliant)
    130 - RIF-3 (Nobel)
    131 - N130 (Vihtavuori)
    132 - SP-3 (Vectan)
    133 - 680 (Winchester)
    134 - N200 (Norma)
    135 - PCL 508 (PB Clermont)
    136 - 1680 (Accurate)
    137 - TU2000 (Vectan)
    138 - AR2207 (ADI)
    139 - H4198 (Hodgdon)
    140 - N133 (Vihtavuori)
    141 - 4198 (IMR)

    Best.
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  • rusty3040rusty3040 Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i finally ran out of winchester 680 several years ago, i tried 1680 because i was told its the same, i could only increase the charge one grain because of case capacity and i still never got the velocity i was getting with the 680 , i finally switched to imr4227
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  • steve4102steve4102 Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I load for the 221 Fireball and have tried several powders. I settled on 2400 for a couple of reasons. Accuracy is outstanding, velocity is very good and the barrel stays cool much longer than with slower powders like 1680, R-7 and N-120.

    My 221 is a CZ 527. Here is what my 12 year old son can do with his Fireball and 2400 at 100 yards.

    IMG_0360-1.jpg
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  • litetriggerlitetrigger Member Posts: 319 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    way to go Jason! what scope do you use?
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  • steve4102steve4102 Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by litetrigger
    way to go Jason! what scope do you use?


    Iron sites!

    Just kidding, it has a cheap Bushnell Trophy 6-18x40.
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  • billj139billj139 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have some AA1680 powder and was looking for cast bullet loads for a 8X56R. I see equivalent weight loads in the 22 hornet for AA1680 and IMR4198. I have load data for 4198 for 8X56R from LEE and will load some reduced loads for 8X56R based on this equivalence but starting about 10% lower than starting loads for 4198. When I shoot it I will post how it works. I shot the 8X56R Steyr a few weeks ago and the straight pull bolt is fun. Out of 10 shots purchased reloads ($1 each) and 5 shots Hornady custom ($1.45 each - yikes!!!) I hit a foot square target 14 times with open sights. I bought the LEE .329 mold and cast some bullets to reload. I should be able to save considerable $.
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  • billj139billj139 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the last post I forgot to mention I was shooting at 100yds. It makes a big difference if it was only 25yds.
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  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,429 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Billj, I wouldn't use AA1680 in much-reduced loads. Spherical powders do NOT act like extruded ones, and they especially do not like a lot of airspace in the case. They don't like to be compressed, either, so loading spherical powders pretty much demands 90 to 100% case fill.

    To the OP, Accurate developed 1680 to be a general replacement for the by-then publicly discontinued W680. (Winchester still makes 680, but in non-canister form, to load their Hornet rounds and perhaps others.) Accurate 1680 is close to 680 in some - but not all - production lots. You should not simply substitute it for 680 without working up as though it were a wholly different powder - because it is.

    Finally, the fallacy of most burn rate charts is that the interval between adjacent numbers can be no change at all (as with truly identical powders), a tiny gap or a huge change in burn rate. You cannot tell in any way whether the gap between (purely for example) #125 and #126 is the same, smaller or larger than the gap between #126 and #127. Worse, depending on the source and the testing involved, powders can and do change many places on different charts!
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
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  • billj139billj139 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The only powder I have seen with warnings to not use reduced charges is W296 and this powder has published loads with compressed charges. The danger problems with 296 also seem to be very difficult to reproduce from what I have read. I wouldn't use reduced 296 charges. Other spherical powders have no such warnings. I will judge loading density (how much volume the powder takes up in the case) and maybe will not load if the loading density is <50%. I will load about 10 rounds and check for pressure signs with each shot. I have experienced high pressure signs with a 357 Herrett Contender due to thick case necks with a starting load. I had to hammer the gun open. I only fired a few rounds and disasembled the remaining rounds later. This is why you use starting loads. If I had started with max loads I probably would have had a blown up gun. Measurement of the case necks later revealed the non-published fact that you need to ream the case necks thinner with the 357 Herrett. I can't believe this was not mentioned in the loading books I read at the time. I have been reloading for more than 30 years and am a professional chemist and do not take chances with my safety(well I do cross the street but always look both ways first)[;)]
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  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,429 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, I'm not a chemist, but I'd never blithely substitute a double-base spherical for a single-base extruded powder. Still, you're a big boy now and I did my duty. Good luck and do report back.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
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  • billj139billj139 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I just loaded 10 rounds with the LEE .329 bullets and 19.5 grains of AA1680. Now I just need a warm day to try them. They fed through the Steyr wonderfully. Just a note: I did not load them blithely, I loaded them slowly and carefully[:D]. I will report back when I try them (if I am still able). It may be a week or two until I report.
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  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,210 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    For what it's worth: My Fireball is a 700LS. The load it shoots best is 18.6 gr. of Reloader 7 with a Hornady 50 gr spire and WSR primer. It's not a hot load--just under 3000 fps and it doesn't seem to matter whether I use the regular Hornady spire or the SX. I know this doesn't address your W680/AA1680 issue but, since you can't get the powder you want, you might try this combo. The bullets are about as cheap as you can get and a lb. of powder lasts a long time.

    And steve4102: I've tried your load of 15/2400 only with a 40 gr. Berger bullet. It does shoot good in my rifle but no better than the RL7 load and those Bergers are a bit costly.
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  • billj139billj139 Member Posts: 5 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by billj139
    I just loaded 10 rounds with the LEE .329 bullets and 19.5 grains of AA1680 (3.1cc with LEE dipper). Now I just need a warm day to try them. They fed through the Steyr wonderfully. Just a note: I did not load them blithely, I loaded them slowly and carefully[:D]. I will report back when I try them (if I am still able). It may be a week or two until I report.


    I shot them yesterday @ 50yds. For 5 shots, 3 shots in 2", spread 6". 5 more shots, 4 shots in 2", spread 3.5". Primers were still rounded, flattened slightly near crater. Cases had small amount of soot on outside. Recoil was about 35 Rem level so I would estimate pressure at about 30,000 to 35,000 CUP. There was no delayed ignition or other undesirable effects. I did tip them up before loading so the powder was against the primer but then fed them in horizontal and shot. The loading density for these loads was about 30% so I would not buy AA1680 to use in the 8X56R, but it works OK. I will continue to use these as a moderate plinking load. For deer hunting , maybe I will try to increase in 0.5 grain increments until primers are significantly flattened or my shoulder tells me to stop, whichever comes first.
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  • TravisMMSCTravisMMSC Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have just come across some 680 powder. its been packaged in plain 1lb cans. I trust the previous owner, the cans are labeled 680. My question is are their any other powders named 680 other than Winchester's. the label says "5-1-88 #623 T-680 use 680 data". It is a super fine spherical powder and smells good. My second question is burn rate, litetrigger has stated that in his fireball he's loading 17gr, thats middle of the road load for 1680 with a 40gr bullet. Litetrigger how is your pressure signs w680 load?

    Thanks, Travis
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  • litetriggerlitetrigger Member Posts: 319 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry for the delay, (long road trip, alaska is wonderful!!) no signs of pressure with W680. I called Cooper rifles and they use reloader 7 (won't say how many grains) in the 221
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