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.45 ACP loads for 16" bbl?

bigcitybillbigcitybill Member Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭
Seeking advice for shooting 230gr. hardballs in a carbine. What powders might work at .45 ACP pressures and still burn slow enough to accelerate all the way down the bore?
Thanks, Bill

Comments

  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,220 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That is a good question. Only trial and error will tell the tale; any slower powder should, could and might keep the pressure rise on the slow side until the bullet is down the bore, increasing MV. I think starting with Blue Dot might be good.
  • bigcitybillbigcitybill Member Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    How about maybe flake/shotgun powder? H110 seems popular for .410 - think there's any potential there?
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's common sense idea, but totally false.

    Powders that burn slower than standard for a cartridge will produce less than optimum results because they never achieve the pressure they are designed for.

    The optimum powder for a cartridge will give the best results regardless of barrel length.

    Or, saying that another way, the powder that produces best velocity in one barrel length will give the best velocity in all barrel lengths.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    You are getting into an area that has many variables besides burn rate
    alone. One of the biggest factors I think you are leaving out is the size and shape of the .45acp case. With that short [compared to bore size] case, I don;t believe ANY powder will "burn" more than 10 0r 12 inches of barrel length. I have used Red Dot powder in plinking/practice
    target loads for the .45acp, and noted about the same amount of "burn"
    in 4" and 7" barrels. With almost all acp type of cases, .25 thru .45,
    you are probably at the end of useful burning somewhere about 10 inches.
    Now if you had say a .357mag...loads could be altered from a 3 inch snubnose revolver to 18" lever rifle. bob
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here we go again. There is essentially NO burning past the pressure peak. If there were, the pressure would continue to rise or at least maintain its peak. It doesn't; it falls abruptly. That proves there is no added burning past that point. In most handgun rounds, that peak occurs about the time the bullet clears the case mouth. In some rounds like the 9mm, it happens before the bullet leaves the case. All the powder that is going to burn has done so by then.

    It takes extremely slow powder combined with an extremely low expansion ratio (think smallbore magnum cartridge) for the pressure peak to occur as much as nine or ten inches down the bore.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    I think we may be talking apples and oranges. Notice I use " " around the word "burn". Saying that there is No burning past peak pressure is not in MHO correct. The pressures drops abruptly because the bullet is moving away from the case, thereby Enlarging the area the pressure has to fill. To put this in a simple picture, If you had a cylinder with a movable piston in the end, and you charged it with 10psi of air, then you retracted the piston to twice the original spacing the psi would drop proportional. Would not a slower "burning" powder maintain higher
    psi than a powder that "flashes" as the bullet is just leaving the case.
    Many hand loaders know of powders and loads that are killers on the barrel throats. I will be glad to donate a chambered barrel to anyone
    that will drill a row of holes spaced every inch along the length of it and install pressure transducers and then try different powders in the case and record the readings. bob
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You only need one transducer or strain gauge, for the same reason you need only one pressure gauge on a tank - it will record the pressure throughout the system.

    I said "essentially no burning" rather than an absolute, because although pressures and temperatures drop fast enough to prevent any additional powder ignition past the peak, there is still a very short "tailoff" of powder that's is already burning. But that is both very small and very short in duration.

    The answer to the original post remains the same: regular 45 ACP powders will operate best at the pressures that round develops, and produce more than enough gas to accelerate the bullet all the way down a 16" barrel.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    Interesting reply, thank you RR. I still believe IF you had say. 12 pressure transducers or better yet CUP disks spaced along the barrel's length, you could measure large differences in pressure as the bullet passed each one. AND by changing powders, {especially from a single base to a double based nitro enhanced] the spread would be great. There
    are just too many loads out there that are "flamethrowers", to think that "burn" rate is not critical as many internal ballistic experts want us to believe. Lets hear from some others that are advanced handloaders on this subject please....bob
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    You only need one transducer or strain gauge, for the same reason you need only one pressure gauge on a tank - it will record the pressure throughout the system.

    I said "essentially no burning" rather than an absolute, because although pressures and temperatures drop fast enough to prevent any additional powder ignition past the peak, there is still a very short "tailoff" of powder that's is already burning. But that is both very small and very short in duration.

    The answer to the original post remains the same: regular 45 ACP powders will operate best at the pressures that round develops, and produce more than enough gas to accelerate the bullet all the way down a 16" barrel.


    Rocky,

    I am in agreement with Babun here. What you are describing is a static measuring method in a dynamic situation. The pressure will peak at some point after firing then decrease as the bullet travels down the barrel. You can change the peak pressure point and total pressure with choice of powder, case or primer. The trick is to find what will work best for this 'long for caliber' barrel. My choice for your situation would be AA No. 9.

    The problem with the .45 case is that there is such a small window (read: small case, even though it's fat,; small potential.) to load up in velocity in comparison like you would a rifle. You're going to hit the wall of diminishing returns when you extend the burn time and get less initial push on the bullet to help velocity. The #9 is one of the slowest double base pistol powders I can think of, so it should work for this circumstance. If not getting the desired velocity (and not infringing on pressure limitations) move back to No. 7

    -good luck
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Transducer and strain gauge systems do in fact display the entire pressure curve from shortly after primer flash through muzzle exit. They are sensitive enough to reveal small pressure bumps if and when the bullet passes over spots of jacket fouling! The very, very short hesitation of the bullet shows up as a small bump in the pressure.

    I have and use a strain gauge system. Trust me, it is at least as good as the transducer systems used in the labs, and it makes a copper crusher seem like reading chicken innards by comparison.

    A copper crusher is probably the least responsive measurement system. Not only is there serious lag in response, but it can only record the peak, but none of the character of the buildup or tailoff.

    To the 45 ACP: the problem with going to a slow powder is that we fail to take its optimum pressure range into account. AA#9 is designed to ignite and burn properly at pressure far above the maximum allowed for the 45 ACP. So even though we can pack more of AA#9 in there, it would burn poorly if at all. Result: even lower velocity.

    While it might add a few feet per second to load a very slightly slower powder, there simply isn't enough room to add enough of it to matter. And then the huge expansion ratio guarantees that little if any of it burns because the pressure drops so fast as the bullet moves. A too-slow powder simply can't burn under those conditions.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    Since it seems There are a few very Knowledgeable reloaders here, Has any one tried the newer VihtaVuori Nitro enhanced powders {IE N570} in
    very heavy bullet weights for the 6.5 mm.? I want to try to work up some ultra long range target loads for a friend's 6.5 Creedmore. This powder is said to be slower and with more energy than the norm. bob
  • bigcitybillbigcitybill Member Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I use VVN540 in a 26" .223 Ackley. 75 grainers @ 3060 + or - about 16-18 fps. Shoots .3 or better all the time and is a screamer for this cartridge/bullet/barrel. That's .22-250 performance in a small case.

    Previously shot N135 and N140. I'll stick with 540.

    *Let's ask the board
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    Thanks for that info BCB. I was also wondering how those powders might work in the Question posted about the "wrong" barrel length in a .45acp??? It seems that a higher energy powder just might be what he is looking for....bob
  • bigcitybillbigcitybill Member Posts: 4,841 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bottom line seems to be case capacity and expansion ratio. There's just not enough room in the case to treat it as a rifle cartridge.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bingo, Bill. Big bullet in big bore beggars better ballistics from bitsy brass. Boy!

    No experience with any VV powders, babun. There simply isn't room in my powder locker for everything, and I passed on the whole VV line as a result.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Babun,

    One pound of VV N550 through my 6.5x55. Excellent velocity, but I didn't renew the prescription as I don't want to erode the barrel prematurely. I haven't and don't buy anymore 500 series VV. I do buy and stick with the 100 series.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    I have the same storage problem!! Am now up to The WHOLE three garage for gun stuff !! The cars and trucks stay outside now. LOL !!I was uneasy about buying the more costly powders if they wasn't worth the trouble of MORE stuff to sort thru. bob
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 12,874 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bob, last time I counted, I had more than 75 KINDS of powder!

    The fire marshal would not be happy.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • doggrowldoggrowl Member Posts: 1 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wasn't there a gun magazine article about that...testing the velocity differences between 9mm and the 45 ACP in carbine and pistol length barrels...I seem to remember that the 45 ACP SLOWED from the friction in the longer barrel. Evidently John Browning got the 5 inch barrel length and powder capacity right for the 45...of course, I'm old and my memory is shot out too.
    quote:Originally posted by bigcitybill
    Seeking advice for shooting 230gr. hardballs in a carbine. What powders might work at .45 ACP pressures and still burn slow enough to accelerate all the way down the bore?
    Thanks, Bill
  • iwannausernameiwannausername Member Posts: 7,131
    edited November -1
    No, the drop in pressure indicates that volume is being created (between bullet base and inside of cartridge) faster than gas is expanding...

    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    Here we go again. There is essentially NO burning past the pressure peak. If there were, the pressure would continue to rise or at least maintain its peak. It doesn't; it falls abruptly. That proves there is no added burning past that point. In most handgun rounds, that peak occurs about the time the bullet clears the case mouth. In some rounds like the 9mm, it happens before the bullet leaves the case. All the powder that is going to burn has done so by then.

    It takes extremely slow powder combined with an extremely low expansion ratio (think smallbore magnum cartridge) for the pressure peak to occur as much as nine or ten inches down the bore.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    Bob, last time I counted, I had more than 75 KINDS of powder!

    The fire marshal would not be happy.


    Speaking of that...my kid caught my house on fire last week when I was last down in Chicago.[}:)] It took most of the siding off on that side of the house...the side where my reloading room is, with more than 160 lbs of various powders.[:0] I joked that I could just see my wife's lily white butt flying through the air and landing in the next suburb.[;)][:D] She didn't think that was funny, ...I did[:D]

    On a more/less serious note, I have to go with I wanna username in than a slower powder will produce more pressure down the barrel. Whether it be fast pistol powder or slow rifle powder. And of course the length of the barrel has an effect on the useability of that pressure created. Of course the powder can't be so slow it won't generate enough power to push the bullet out to the required speed.
  • 1stTankerSki1stTankerSki Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bigcitybill
    Seeking advice for shooting 230gr. hardballs in a carbine. What powders might work at .45 ACP pressures and still burn slow enough to accelerate all the way down the bore?
    Thanks, Bill


    When I was in Tanks, we used the same .45 Cal. Ball rnds. in the .45 Cal. Auto-Grease guns ( M3 or M4 ??) I don't remember how long the barrel was, but they cycled as long as the trigger was pulled. I'll have to look that up!

    Ski
  • cash777cash777 Member Posts: 213 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Speer #13 reloading manual 45 auto.These loads may also be used in semi-automatic carbines chambered for the 45 Auto cartridge.However don't expect significant velocity increases from the longer barrels.The modest pressures of the 45 auto combined with quick-burning propellants ---usually mean that increases of more than 100 feet/sec are rare.
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