In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
A Wildcat .45 ACP ?
1stTankerSki
Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
I was thinking, for the same reason that Fedor Tokarev, developed the 7.62x25 R and TTC-33 pistol. Over the other ammo of the time, the 9x18, and 9mm Lugar.
Could i make a .45 auto round into a Wildcat by using a .40 S&W bored Colt 1911 barrel, and rechamber it for .45 cal. dia. case. to headspace on the shoulder. Sort of like the 357 Sig, and 7.62x25 on steroids.
Using a .45 colt long case trim the rim to the rimless .45 auto size, and neckdown the case with a shoulder for the .400" dia. .40 cal bullets, Keeping the case length the same as the .45 auto or a mm. or two larger and still feed through the .45 magazine. I thought about having a contender barrel made for this round to use as a test barrel. To realize internal and external ballistics.
I think it would be a hot round ! Of the muzzle vel. range of 1400 - 1600. And be under 40,000 psi ! Would it be too hot ? What do you think?
Ski
Could i make a .45 auto round into a Wildcat by using a .40 S&W bored Colt 1911 barrel, and rechamber it for .45 cal. dia. case. to headspace on the shoulder. Sort of like the 357 Sig, and 7.62x25 on steroids.
Using a .45 colt long case trim the rim to the rimless .45 auto size, and neckdown the case with a shoulder for the .400" dia. .40 cal bullets, Keeping the case length the same as the .45 auto or a mm. or two larger and still feed through the .45 magazine. I thought about having a contender barrel made for this round to use as a test barrel. To realize internal and external ballistics.
I think it would be a hot round ! Of the muzzle vel. range of 1400 - 1600. And be under 40,000 psi ! Would it be too hot ? What do you think?
Ski
Comments
.400 Cor Bon is on .45 ACP head diameter and case length, .40 Super is about 0.1" longer in the brass and loaded to higher pressure. Both cases are purpose made and have small primer pockets.
Or you could just buy a barrel for .400 Cor Bon or .40 Super.
.400 Cor Bon is on .45 ACP head diameter and case length, .40 Super is about 0.1" longer in the brass and loaded to higher pressure. Both cases are purpose made and have small primer pockets.
Will they work with the Colt .45 1991 series 80, frame and magazines?
I want a .45 Wildcat for the 1911 pistol, with a rebarrel kit. That will have the flash and bang of the CZ-52, so when you're on the pistol range, and firing everyone will ask, "What the heck do you have there"? While shooting groups under .750" at seventy five feet.
Ski
I'm thinking more of a mid-sized Desert Eagle, using a rimless .45 Colt lg. brass necked down, for .400 dia. or smaller .358" dia. 140 grain. to 158 grn. for use in a semi-auto pistol not a revolver like the 38-40 Win. rd.
I don't think Colt would be interested in designing a new semi-auto for a .45 cal. Wildcat round. But I will contact Starline Brass, and Magnum Research, they just might consider it. And even a lighter grain, .375 dia. [9.5 mm.] pistol bullet from Speer, or Hornady in 165 gn., 180 gn., and 200 gn., and 260 gn., would make it a true Wildcat .
Ski
Yes, that was the whole point, to have a high velocity .40 caliber for the 1911 without the expense of a new slide that a 10mm would require. Also see .41 Avenger and 10mm Centaur.
I just did a search for them, on gun-broker, and nothing was found? Who makes them?
And:
quote:Originally posted by dcs shooters
Hawk hit it right on, as it's been done, and died out already [xx(]
It's not been done, the .40 cal, the .41 cal. and .44 Cal. Magnums were all made for revolvers.
It was only when IMI, and Magnum Research teamed up with the .50 cal Auto, Desert Eagle, that other gun mfg.s started making revolvers for the new round.
Magnum Research now offers, Desert Eagles in smaller calibers.
But each is still in it's straight case configuaration, they are not Wildcats.
Even Taurus makes the 500 Raging Bull, ( Revolver ) and semi-auto's for .40, .38 sup, and 9mm. but none are wildcats.
The one Revolver that even comes close to what I want to achieve, is the .454 Casull Raging Bull, that has a Muzzle Vol. I'm thinking about for an Auto pistol.
Based on the Browning 1911, or CZ-52 (oversized), and only because of it's stronger roller lock-up design. That could handle a .45 cal. case, and necked down for a smaller dia. bullet.
I've changed my mind on the .40 cal, I think a better Wildcat round would be the overlooked .375 dia. bullet, and for whatever reason not developed for the Handgun Hunter, (worldwide) , most likely because of the .44 Mag. ! But that leaves the Auto-pistol hunter in the cold.
If the large frame auto, Desert Eagle can fit in hunters hands, I don't see why a .45 or .454 cal. necked down for the .375 dia. bullet, made for a 1911 large frame, or CZ pistol. can be overlooked.
This is a true Wildcat, but make it for the Revolver and Auto-pistol, by making it a rimless case, like the .45 auto,
( although it's not a true rimless case, it's rim or flange is larger than the case dia.), but by being necked down it would have a shoulder to headspace on, for both pistol and revolver.
And be as fast and flat shooting if not faster than the .44 Magnum, with a managable recoil for the Auto-pistol hunter. The Engineers and Designers know, a new pistol and round for it, would be a first in the Industry, and if the ballistics proved out for it, every Auto pistol Hunter (worldwide) would want one. I might even buy more than one or two.
I'd also like to point out, a necked down cartridge, in say a .454 pistol or revolver, would make it a bull barrel for the smaller dia. bullet. A 7" to 10" barrel, with a 1 in 12" twist, would be a game getter for sure.
Ski
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm
135 grain at 1,800 fps 971ftlbs
165 grain at 1,600 fps 938ftlbs
200 grain at 1,300 fps 750ftlbs
That is about the maximum you can do on the 1911 platform.
The only 9.5mm/.375 handguns I know of offhand are the .375 JDJ for Contender single shots and the .375 Magnum Dan Wesson revolver.
If you want to go to a monster like the Desert Eagle, you will be limited only by your finances and your ability to get somebody to listen to you.
EDIT
hello sir I agree it is possible to design a semi auto pistol for very powerful cartridges. I have owned most of them including a MARS what I was trying to get across that even colt found out the original 10MM as loaded by NORMA and others was TOO MUCH for a steady diet for a 1911 Platform Just like the original 357 Mag loads for revolvers the 10MM in the delta Colt is loaded much lower velocity and recoil impulse then the original loading in both of these cartridges. If you want to fire a 1911 with Flash Bang it is not a semi auto conversion but get a Dominator this is a bolt action single shot conversion in 308 Winchester that fits on a 1911 frame It will get every-ones attention within 1/4 mile make your hand go numb and give you a wopper case of flinchites. [:o)]
IMHO the 1911 Platform Is not what you want Colt found that our when they first tried the 10MM there are two ways to handle hotter rounds with more muzzle energy on a 1911 type pistol Heavier recoil spring or heavier slide. to handle the type of cartridge you want it would take about a 35 pound recoil spring or add about one pound of weight to the slide. with the current heavy load spring of about 22 pounds. both of these modifications would make the pistol very hard to use and when the slide closed it would jump forward in your hand. If you want BANG FLASH get a KIMBLE this was a semi auto that used a 30 Carbine round the Ruger revolver used the same round.Believe me It will give you both FLASH & BANG
Perry Shooter,
Who are you trying to kid? Colt was the first Mfg. to make a 10mm. semi-auto pistol for the D&D and Norma 10mm. Bren round. In a shorter case then the .41 Rem.Mag. with half the load. And was at most only 1320 fps. Muzl. Vel. for the 1911 design. Other makers followed suite, with Revolvers and pistols for the .400" dia. bullet.
The Kimble failed because the pistol could not handle the round. Where a better design might of. The .357 Magnum while smaller in dia. has the same case length as the .30 carbine, and it works real well in the semi-auto Desert Eagle.
Then again Mr. J Kimble, did not use the barrel roller-lock up of the CZ-52 either. Which was copied from the German MG design.
It is not beyond any Engineer, to develope a design that will work. The Desert Eagle, by IMI and Magnum Research is proof, a .500 Caliber can be fired in a semi-auto pistol.
A design can include recoil buffers, and gas or hydraulic systems yet to be designed. What about the new shotgun, with very little recoil, and timed shells/missle slugs? Could that type of recoil be adapted to a semi-auto pistol?
Don't look backward, look forward for salutions, thats when we make progress. A necked down .454 Casull brass for a .375 dia. bullet, has not been loaded or tested for ballistic research, let alone design a pistol for it. Thats what an engineer works with, and requires.
Ski
2 questions:
1- Do YOU even know what you want? Youve gone in about 8 different directions already.
2- Do YOU even know what a wildcat is? Y seem to think it's something a firearm or cartridge manfacture should design & develop for you. I'll give you a hin, that's YOUR job (not theirs).
Wildcatters design and develop their own cartridges. And if a suatable platform can't be located/modified, they also develop that too.
Need a special reamer for your design? There are several companies that will make one (for a price), to your design, for you.
Need dies, well, those are just a couple die blanks (and another reamer or 2) away.
Your design dosn't work, simply scrap all your tooling and start over.
I was thinking, for the same reason that Fedor Tokarev, developed the 7.62x25 R and TTC-33 pistol. Over the other ammo of the time, the 9x18, and 9mm Lugar.
Could i make a .45 auto round into a Wildcat by using a .40 S&W bored Colt 1911 barrel, and rechamber it for .45 cal. dia. case. to headspace on the shoulder. Sort of like the 357 Sig, and 7.62x25 on steroids.
Using a .45 colt long case trim the rim to the rimless .45 auto size, and neckdown the case with a shoulder for the .400" dia. .40 cal bullets, Keeping the case length the same as the .45 auto or a mm. or two larger and still feed through the .45 magazine. I thought about having a contender barrel made for this round to use as a test barrel. To realize internal and external ballistics.
I think it would be a hot round ! Of the muzzle vel. range of 1400 - 1600. And be under 40,000 psi ! Would it be too hot ? What do you think?
Ski
You seem to answer your own questions, but I say go for it....oops I've already got my tool and die guy working on the Contender barrel and have already applied for the patent[;)]