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Going from mill to FC brass...

ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
edited July 2009 in Perry Shooter Competition Shooting and Reloading Forum
I have this load for my 30-06, 168 SMK under 55.9gr of IMR-4350 using HXP brass. My rifle absolutely loves it. Well anyways, I'm trying to make a huge stock of it and I'm running low on the HXP brass but I have tons of F-C brass laying around...

I know the mill brass has less capacity meaning higher pressures so I would need to use more powder. I know I should go the safe route and work it up but I don't have much time to get out to the range that is kind of far from me. So I was thinking just up it 1 grain and see where that takes me. I know Sierra's manual says 56 of 4350 is the max but they have been known to err on the side of caution and anyways I've seen other peoples loads that have far exceeded 56grs.

You guys think its even possible for me to get a load that is equal using the F-C? Or should I just load up some 100grs for plinking with those?
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Comments

  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What you propose is like Sundance kid asking Butch Cassidy if he used enough dynamite on the train safe; as it exploded across the countryside.

    The only way to know is to test. PERIOD.

    Going willy-nilly and assuming the fed brass is thinner could get you hurt, it may not be thinner. You assumptive load could also be just enough over pressure (or under pressure) to shoot like crap, stick the bolt every other shot and require you to pull it all down.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just wishful thinking I guess... I already knew there is no way I can get it exactly the same with the two different brasses. I guess I'll just work up another load and memorize the zero's so I don't go nuts sighting it in between the two. Thanks for putting me in my place.[:D]
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix


    I know the mill brass has less capacity meaning higher pressures so I would need to use more powder.


    You need to use LESS powder. Think about your statement there. If the capacity is smaller, if you pack the same amount in non mil cases and a commercial case, the pressures will be higher in the mil case. If you load more powder in the mil case, pressures will be higher yet.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by shoff14
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix


    I know the mill brass has less capacity meaning higher pressures so I would need to use more powder.


    You need to use LESS powder. Think about your statement there. If the capacity is smaller, if you pack the same amount in non mil cases and a commercial case, the pressures will be higher in the mil case. If you load more powder in the mil case, pressures will be higher yet.


    I meant more powder in the F-C cases... I could see how you read that like that.
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix
    quote:Originally posted by shoff14
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix


    I know the mill brass has less capacity meaning higher pressures so I would need to use more powder.


    You need to use LESS powder. Think about your statement there. If the capacity is smaller, if you pack the same amount in non mil cases and a commercial case, the pressures will be higher in the mil case. If you load more powder in the mil case, pressures will be higher yet.


    I meant more powder in the F-C cases... I could see how you read that like that.


    ok, just making sure. [:)] better safe then sorry though. I wouldn't want to just go shoot without testing.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know, my original question was stupid, I knew it was but I don't have much time to make it to the range. But thanks for the safety check, I know a lot of people that think heavier bullets need MORE powder...

    I guess I'll just make a couple batches of 10, .5 grains apart and see what the winner is, or closest to winner and work with that. There really aren't any quick ways to find a good load but there are certainly quick ways to blow one...
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix


    I guess I'll just make a couple batches of 10, .5 grains apart and see what the winner is, or closest to winner and work with that. There really aren't any quick ways to find a good load but there are certainly quick ways to blow one...


    Trust me when I say this. There are a lot of people right now that are in your shoes too. Me included, I haven't been reloading long at all. But, long enough to have some good loads. Now I can't find components that I want so I have been substituting to keep up with my habit. I am working up several different loads right now due to this, in fact yesterday was a test day for 2 different weapons. I would much rather load a couple hundred or dozen and go shoot.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I practically cry when I drop primers on the ground or touch them by accident (I keep them just in case in old cases though... you never know if your going to be completely out and contaminated primers are better than no primers). I've got 700 .308 168gr SMK's and 200 .277 150gr GK's. Only ~ 800 primers left. Lets just say when I go to the range now I take my time and do a lot of watching, I can't wait for these shortages to end if they ever do...
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  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    One quick thing is to weigh the 2 different cases. Heavier cases mean thicker brass. You can also leave a dead primer in 1 of each type of case, and weigh the amount of water that it takes to fill each one, this will give you the capacity difference.
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  • MobuckMobuck Member Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is unacceptable to recomend exceeding the max listed in the manual but have you checked other manuals? There are often several grains difference in top loads between manuals. It is likely the small change due to switching cases will not greatly affect the accuracy of the loads. A slight reduction in velocity would be expected but w/o actual testing, there is no sure answer.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    It is unacceptable to recomend exceeding the max listed in the manual but have you checked other manuals? There are often several grains difference in top loads between manuals. It is likely the small change due to switching cases will not greatly affect the accuracy of the loads. A slight reduction in velocity would be expected but w/o actual testing, there is no sure answer.


    Everybody do me a favor and bust out their manuals besides Sierra and see what the max charge is for a 168 HPBT with IMR-4350, somebody "borrowed" my Lee manual forever... Thanks!
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  • dcs shootersdcs shooters Member Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Looks like 54.0-58.0 C for your load.
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4350 .308" 3.230" 54.0 2720 48,500 PSI 58.0C 2903 57,800 PSI
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by shoff14
    168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4350 .308" 3.230" 54.0 2720 48,500 PSI 58.0C 2903 57,800 PSI


    Now this really grinds my gears... Sierra says 56grs of 4350 is 2900 fps... But thats out of a 26" barrel.

    I really need to get a chrony, the original load I listed at the top of this thread is a real tack driver in my rifle but I can only estimate the fps and thats no good for my drop table from Infinity.

    Thanks for the data!!
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  • shoff14shoff14 Member Posts: 11,994 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That data is from the hodgon website, its the same as their little book they put out every year. Nothing else I have has that bullet in it. Why the hell does Hornady have to copy Sierra's bullets, but yet change the weight by a few grains plus or minus?
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by shoff14
    That data is from the hodgon website, its the same as their little book they put out every year. Nothing else I have has that bullet in it. Why the hell does Hornady have to copy Sierra's bullets, but yet change the weight by a few grains plus or minus?


    To get people like us to try them out and give them money. Some people swear by brands for bullets and if you are a Hornady guy that wants a 168 SMK type you're going to get it. Or its just for suckers who don't know any better. You pick.

    Edit: I'm a Sierra guy [8D], my best loads always turned out to be Sierra's, even my 9mm carbine loads...
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  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix
    quote:Originally posted by shoff14
    168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4350 .308" 3.230" 54.0 2720 48,500 PSI 58.0C 2903 57,800 PSI


    Now this really grinds my gears... Sierra says 56grs of 4350 is 2900 fps... But thats out of a 26" barrel.

    I really need to get a chrony, the original load I listed at the top of this thread is a real tack driver in my rifle but I can only estimate the fps and thats no good for my drop table from Infinity.

    Thanks for the data!!


    Also remember that MV and bullet ballistics are affected by elevation above seal level, barometric pressure, relative humidity, temperature and even the shape of the rifling. Once you get the chrony (get the one with the printer) you open a whole new world of shooting.

    Some days you will scratch your head when the SD and ES are higher than expected but the groups are very tight. Then you will shoot a load with super low ES and it won't group at all.....
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  • AmbroseAmbrose Member Posts: 3,209 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like Tailgunner's idea. I liked it so much that I weighed some brass. A small sample of HXP brass averaged 193.8 gr. A sample of FC brass averaged 201.0 gr. In other words, my FC brass is HEAVIER (not lighter) than my military HXP brass. You would have to REDUCE your loads not increase them to get equal pressure/velocity. How much? Check the water capacity, as Tailgunner suggests and adjust your load accordingly. Your brass may be different, you would have to weigh it to find out. I know we have always been told that military brass is heavier than commercial, but I've found it's a good idea to check on what I'm told! And, 30/06, I don't think you deserve to be yelled at for asking a legitimate Question
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  • iwannausernameiwannausername Member Posts: 7,131
    edited November -1
    Actually you should measure internal volume of the case. Cases could have the exact same dimensions inside & out but have different weights due to exact brass composition....
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  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ThirtyAughtSix,

    I've found variances in just about every maker of 30-06 brass. When I do a load workup, I take and make a one bullet ladder just to see where the high pressure ends up. You can pretty much start at the start point for any case in any bullet manual. You can't end up with the same max though. You have to carefully work to that point.

    As noted above the rule of thumb is lighter brass means less weight. It also means less ability to handle extreme high pressures. FC tends to be a little soft. Winchester, a little lighter but harder. HXP same thing. You can load these hot but they will get brittle much sooner. I'm currently running three matched cases in FC, Win and LC. I've had to anneal the LC once and my have to do it again.
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by iwannausername
    Actually you should measure internal volume of the case. Cases could have the exact same dimensions inside & out but have different weights due to exact brass composition....


    I'll measure the volumes in the morning and get to the bottom of this. On a totally unrelated subject I picked up some 90gr .277's and with 4350 you can get up to 3600 fps. Now that's gonna blow some critters up... and I know, I won't start at max. I think I'll use my prvi brass with my new cci primers to work up a load for those and save my F-C's for my 150gr GK's for hunting season (This is all out of my rem 7600 pump).
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  • ThirtyAughtSixThirtyAughtSix Member Posts: 27 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Okay, very unscientific but... I measured the milliliters using syringes of HXP 68 and F-C. Results:

    HXP: 4.6
    F-C: 4.9

    I know my tolerances were not exact but .3 mils using a syringe is, well, .3. mils... My HXP 68 Hence has less case capacity and will therefore have more pressure with less powder.

    I'm still not going to start anywhere near max, I'll back down 2 grains and work up and see what happens. Thanks for all your advice guys and I'll let you know how it goes whenever I get a chance to get out to my range.
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  • fire for effectfire for effect Member Posts: 121 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Going from a factory case to a military case is as follows. Weigh both cases. The military case being thicker will also be heavier, and therefore have less capacity. Subtract the weight of the factory case from the weight of the military case. Multiply the result by 12 percent. This is how much you reduce your powder charge for the Military case.

    I would guess that if you wanted to go the opposite direction, you would reverse the formula.
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  • nagalfarnagalfar Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ThirtyAughtSix
    quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
    It is unacceptable to recomend exceeding the max listed in the manual but have you checked other manuals? There are often several grains difference in top loads between manuals. It is likely the small change due to switching cases will not greatly affect the accuracy of the loads. A slight reduction in velocity would be expected but w/o actual testing, there is no sure answer.


    Everybody do me a favor and bust out their manuals besides Sierra and see what the max charge is for a 168 HPBT with IMR-4350, somebody "borrowed" my Lee manual forever... Thanks!


    I think you will find, typically older manuals will list higher max loads.. reason.. lawyers suing powder makers because some fool eats his bolt because his case was only half full with that max load, so he went ahead and filled it up the rest of the way...
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