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If it's not one thing, it's another...UPDATED
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Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
I've been out of reloading too long.
I loaded up 20 rounds of .300 Mag up the other day...the seating depth was actually about .005 off the lands. I thought I was right on the lands until I checked the chamber with an OAL gauge today. I set my dies up, locked everything down, loaded 20 rounds. Today I was double checking my OAL of the loading ammo with my comparator and found that two cartidges were a few thousandths longer...so I went back to run them through the bullet seating die again. When I did so, the die pushed the shoulder back and put a crease all the way around the body of the case (right where the shoulder meets the body). I then ran an unsized, fired case into the seater die and the die produced a significant roll crip on the case. This die was not set up to crimp the cases at all.
Any ideas as to what in the world is going on??? The newly resized (crushed) cartridge has an OAL of .142 shorter than the OAL the die had been set at (2.882). Nobody has touched these dies since I put them back in the box the other day...???
UPDATE: I found the problem...it was a defective case! The belt was undersized and the case ran up inside the die rather than being stopped by the belt! Major head spacing issue! It could have been a bad situation if I had not double checked the OAL of my cases...I'm not going crazy here after all....[^]
I don't know if that's the case or not...tomorrow I'm going to start from scratch and re-setup all of my dies...
I loaded up 20 rounds of .300 Mag up the other day...the seating depth was actually about .005 off the lands. I thought I was right on the lands until I checked the chamber with an OAL gauge today. I set my dies up, locked everything down, loaded 20 rounds. Today I was double checking my OAL of the loading ammo with my comparator and found that two cartidges were a few thousandths longer...so I went back to run them through the bullet seating die again. When I did so, the die pushed the shoulder back and put a crease all the way around the body of the case (right where the shoulder meets the body). I then ran an unsized, fired case into the seater die and the die produced a significant roll crip on the case. This die was not set up to crimp the cases at all.
Any ideas as to what in the world is going on??? The newly resized (crushed) cartridge has an OAL of .142 shorter than the OAL the die had been set at (2.882). Nobody has touched these dies since I put them back in the box the other day...???
UPDATE: I found the problem...it was a defective case! The belt was undersized and the case ran up inside the die rather than being stopped by the belt! Major head spacing issue! It could have been a bad situation if I had not double checked the OAL of my cases...I'm not going crazy here after all....[^]
I don't know if that's the case or not...tomorrow I'm going to start from scratch and re-setup all of my dies...
Comments
This varies by brass too. Thin brass can have the die seated slightly deeper than thick necked brass. For instance, reloading some 7.62X54R ammo with Winchester cases, all was going fine. Proper seating depth, slight crimp. I switch to Sellier and Bellot cases, same trim length but thicker neck walls- just a TAD mind you- and I got just what you are describing- the thicker neck buckled against the seater die and crushed the case. i had to back off 1/16 of a turn for the S&B cases compared to the winchesters.
You weren't using different brands of brass by chance, were you?
Are you trying to invent folding case cartridge to save space in back packs???? [:D] Just askin'
Whether you intentionally set it up to roll crimp or not, one way or the other, the seater die is screwed in too deeply. You should back it off, then screw it down until it contacts a sized case; then another 1/4-1/2 turn for a crimp.
This varies by brass too. Thin brass can have the die seated slightly deeper than thick necked brass. For instance, reloading some 7.62X54R ammo with Winchester cases, all was going fine. Proper seating depth, slight crimp. I switch to Sellier and Bellot cases, same trim length but thicker neck walls- just a TAD mind you- and I got just what you are describing- the thicker neck buckled against the seater die and crushed the case. i had to back off 1/16 of a turn for the S&B cases compared to the winchesters.
You weren't using different brands of brass by chance, were you?
The die is not set to crimp at all and this was one of the same 20 rounds I loaded the other day...it's already been through the seater die once...it was just a couple 1000ths off in the OAL, which led me to run it through the die again. All of the brass is identical and from the same batch.
I take a sized, trimmed and inspected, case put it in the press and screw the die down until I just feel the case. At that point I am happy. Seating depth is controlled by the seating stem. Neck tension alone hold the rounds perfectly well in my experience. One shot one kill. [;)]
Are you trying to invent folding case cartridge to save space in back packs???? [:D] Just askin'
Smartass![:D][B)][:I] I quite obviously have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. As I stated before...these dies were already set up and had not been altered in any way. I really don't have any idea of what's going on here![^]
If the die is set properly the ram will top out and the case can go no further. The belt should have nothing to do with the depth the case CAN or does go into the die. You are actually oversizing the case if you use the belt as an indicator of proper fit. The shoulder to belt is the critical dimension for a proper fit in your pea-shooter......You might be shoving the shoulder way back. How did you establish the shoulder location for setting your die????Gosh, I hope that makes sense.
That has me worried.
If the die is set properly the ram will top out and the case can go no further. The belt should have nothing to do with the depth the case CAN or does go into the die. You are actually oversizing the case if you use the belt as an indicator of proper fit. The shoulder to belt is the critical dimension for a proper fit in your pea-shooter......You might be shoving the shoulder way back. How did you establish the shoulder location for setting your die????Gosh, I hope that makes sense.
The dies for a belted case have a little lip inside the die that the belt rests on. Belted cases headspace off the belt...not the shoulder...although I will probably eventually be headspacing off both the belt and the shoulder simultaneously. I checked several of my other loaded rounds and the belt caught on the lip inside the body of the die...they all did, except for the one bad case.
EDIT....there's no real way to see if my cases are hitting that lip in my die...they very well could be hitting on the ogive inside the die. This one case with the shoulder pushed back is going further into the die, but that may be b/c it's shorter than the other cases.
You also stated it set a crimp on another case,..that is a second indicator that the die body is down too far. Back it out, set the lock ring, and run the seater stem down to make up the difference.
IF, your ring you describe, is a bulge at the shoulder/body junction, the very simple answer is that the seater die is too far down. You need to back the die off, and make up the difference by adjusting the seater stem down.
You also stated it set a crimp on another case,..that is a second indicator that the die body is down too far. Back it out, set the lock ring, and run the seater stem down to make up the difference.
JustC...it set a crimp on a fired, unsized case. I set this die one full turn off the case and I loaded up 20 rounds with no problems...I then tried to reseat one loaded round and had this problem. After backing the die off one full turn, I then worked on adjusting my seater depth.
Tomorrow, I'm going to start over and re-setup all of my dies...as bad as I hate too.
For the sake of discussion lets forget the belt is even there. For a cartridge to fit the chamber, belt or no belt, the shoulder to base (or belt) needs to fill the chamber. The way you do this is to take a case fired in YOUR rifle and set the die.
SETTING a SIZING DIE;
Remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt. Screw the die in and raise the ram leave the die out far enough get a quarter between the shell holder and the die bottom. Now, size a case, remove the lube and see if the case will go into the chamber with the bolt requiring just a light finger pressure on the bolt to close, almost, but not quite closing on its own. If the bolt handle just falls down, you are too short back the die off and try again. If it will not go, turn the die in 1/4-1/2 turn at a time checking the case in the chamber after each adjustment until it just goes as described. Use the same case only once or twice to make adjustments. Brass springs back and using a freshly fired case assures an accurate adjustment. That is the proper setting for the die, regardless of it having a belt or not.
SETTING A SEATING DIE (standard type)
Place a sized, PROPERLY TRIMMED case in the press, raise the ram, Have the seating stem backed out far enough to assure it will not hit the case. Screw the die onto the case until you feel it hit the case. You are now in the ball park. Adjust seating depth as required to get the OAL where you want it. If, and I wonder why you would feel the need for one, if, you need a slight crimp, CAREFULY screw the die down until a very slight resistance is felt on the handle at the very bottom of the stroke. That should give a nice little squeeze at the tip of the case holding the bullet fast. A word of caution, if your cases vary in length and you set the die for a short one, you WILL shove the shoulders back when seating the bullet on a longer case. It is very important to set the die using a case of trimmed length. There is not a lot of difference between a little crimp and a collapsed shoulder, a slight case length difference will cause you a lot of headaches. It is one reason I avoid crimping rifle rounds like the plague.
Hope that helps!
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Tomorrow, I'm going to start over and re-setup all of my dies...as bad as I hate too.
For the sake of discussion lets forget the belt is even there. For a cartridge to fit the chamber, belt or no belt, the shoulder to base (or belt) needs to fill the chamber. The way you do this is to take a case fired in YOUR rifle and set the die.
SETTING a SIZING DIE;
Remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt. Screw the die in and raise the ram leave the die out far enough get a quarter between the shell holder and the die bottom. Now, size a case, remove the lube and see if the case will go into the chamber with the bolt requiring just a light finger pressure on the bolt to close, almost, but not quite closing on its own. If the bolt handle just falls down, you are too short back the die off and try again. If it will not go, turn the die in 1/4-1/2 turn at a time checking the case in the chamber after each adjustment until it just goes as described. Use the same case only once or twice to make adjustments. Brass springs back and using a freshly fired case assures an accurate adjustment. That is the proper setting for the die, regardless of it having a belt or not.
SETTING A SEATING DIE (standard type)
Place a sized, PROPERLY TRIMMED case in the press, raise the ram, Have the seating stem backed out far enough to assure it will not hit the case. Screw the die onto the case until you feel it hit the case. You are now in the ball park. Adjust seating depth as required to get the OAL where you want it. If, and I wonder why you would feel the need for one, if, you need a slight crimp, CAREFULY screw the die down until a very slight resistance is felt on the handle at the very bottom of the stroke. That should give a nice little squeeze at the tip of the case holding the bullet fast. A word of caution, if your cases vary in length and you set the die for a short one, you WILL shove the shoulders back when seating the bullet on a longer case. It is very important to set the die using a case of trimmed length. There is not a lot of difference between a little crimp and a collapsed shoulder, a slight case length difference will cause you a lot of headaches. It is one reason I avoid crimping rifle rounds like the plague.
Hope that helps!
Thanks...I'm still fire forming cases, so I'm still using the parent cartridge dies...
I'm still at a loss as to why this seater die was set up and worked fine to load these rounds and then screwed up when I tried to reseat a bullet (b/c it was a couple thousandths longer than the rest).
One other thing. Make sure you keep case mouths annealed, it will help with brass life and give the cases a consistent spring-back after sizing. If some cases are annealed and others are not you will get inconsistent sizing and have difficulty chambering some rounds with no rhyme or reason apparent BTDT. After you get through this period of learning and setting you will be fine.
I don't think it is all that uncommon to see one or two rounds a few thousandth different. How many thousandths was it? My suggestion is calm down!!! From your post I can't tell what you did[:)] Hope this helps [:D] Best Dave
out of a batch of 20 of whatever I load, some are a few thousandths shorter or longer than others, not much you can do about it because the cases will deviate a little.
quote:Originally posted by cash777
I don't think it is all that uncommon to see one or two rounds a few thousandth different. How many thousandths was it? My suggestion is calm down!!! From your post I can't tell what you did[:)] Hope this helps [:D] Best Dave
out of a batch of 20 of whatever I load, some are a few thousandths shorter or longer than others, not much you can do about it because the cases will deviate a little.
NI
Case length has NO effect on OAL. Now, if you had said that the BULLETS deviate that much, than I would be in total agreement with you
quote:Originally posted by cash777
I don't think it is all that uncommon to see one or two rounds a few thousandth different. How many thousandths was it? My suggestion is calm down!!! From your post I can't tell what you did[:)] Hope this helps [:D] Best Dave
out of a batch of 20 of whatever I load, some are a few thousandths shorter or longer than others, not much you can do about it because the cases will deviate a little.
The OAL from the case head to the Ogive should be the same regardless.
quote:Originally posted by nemesisenforcer
quote:Originally posted by cash777
I don't think it is all that uncommon to see one or two rounds a few thousandth different. How many thousandths was it? My suggestion is calm down!!! From your post I can't tell what you did[:)] Hope this helps [:D] Best Dave
out of a batch of 20 of whatever I load, some are a few thousandths shorter or longer than others, not much you can do about it because the cases will deviate a little.
NI
Case length has NO effect on OAL. Now, if you had said that the BULLETS deviate that much, than I would be in total agreement with you
You're right. My bad.