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.44 spl load data for WSF?

pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
I am reloading hornady 240 gr. Hollow points.

I will be shooting these out of a CA bulldog and maybe my .44 mag as well.

I am having trouble finding load data for WSF.

Is the WSF not suitable for this round?

Should I stick with 231 or unique?

I am currently loading 6.3 gr. of unique for these 240's.

Of course,Any advice is welcome and appreciated.

Comments

  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What's a 44WSF? Do you mean 44WCF (44-40)? And what is a CA Bulldog?
  • reloader44magreloader44mag Member Posts: 18,783 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by v35
    What's a 44WSF? Do you mean 44WCF (44-40)? And what is a CA Bulldog?
    I think the CA is for Charter Arms...but I too ask 44WSF...no idea what that might be..as related to a 44spl....what is it Peter?
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    WSF is a type of powder. Winchester Super Field

    It is a ball powder.


    Sorry for the confusion. I was asking if anyone knew the load data for me to use the WSF powder for use with hornady xtp/hp 240 grain bullets in a .44 special cartridge.


    Yes, I have a Charter arms bulldog w/ a 3" barrel chambered in .44 special.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a Charter Bulldog, also. I find that about 800 fps is maximum due to the extreme lightness of the gun. I checked several Winchester brochures and none of them have data for ANY 44 Special loads!

    Nor do I have any experience with that powder personally. But, WSF is a fairly slow shotgun powder, on a rough par with Herco and a titch faster than 800X. If you can find data for either of those two and stick with mild load charges, you should be fine. At low pressures, you might find it burns a bit dirty, though. Use velocity as your guide and work up to 800 fps or whenever the recoil swings your "fun" needle into the red.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    Thanks Rocky,

    Also thank you for the very neat site that you have created. If you don't mind, What is your favorite load for your Bulldog?
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I regret to inform you that my favorite and most accurate load uses a powder that was discontinued 40 years ago. It uses Alcan 120 (5.5 grains of it under a 215 SWCL if you happen to have a can!)

    With current powders, that 215 SWCL over 7.0 of 700X is potent at 900 fps but accurate. 6.0 Bullseye gives 825 fps and hits POA. 5.0 Bullseye gives 775 and is pleasant and accurate.

    With a Speer swaged 240 SWC, 5.5 W231 gives 700 fps and my notes say "GREAT load!" That load gives me a standard deviation of TWO! The previous 5.0 Bullseye gives 715 fps and is also a POA hitter.

    Most published and printed loads for the 44 Special are just too heavy for the Bulldog. The gun will stand them; your wrist won't. I look for a max of 800 fps, and something around 725 is much more comfortable.

    I'm looking to do one or two articles on the 44 Special in the next year. One may compare the original with the current model Bulldog and another may be a full load test with the Ruger flattop (if I ever get mine). I'll include three cast bullet weights and shot loads.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    I regret to inform you that my favorite and most accurate load uses a powder that was discontinued 40 years ago. It uses Alcan 120 (5.5 grains of it under a 215 SWCL if you happen to have a can!)

    With current powders, that 215 SWCL over 7.0 of 700X is potent at 900 fps but accurate. 6.0 Bullseye gives 825 fps and hits POA. 5.0 Bullseye gives 775 and is pleasant and accurate.

    With a Speer swaged 240 SWC, 5.5 W231 gives 700 fps and my notes say "GREAT load!" That load gives me a standard deviation of TWO! The previous 5.0 Bullseye gives 715 fps and is also a POA hitter.

    Most published and printed loads for the 44 Special are just too heavy for the Bulldog. The gun will stand them; your wrist won't. I look for a max of 800 fps, and something around 725 is much more comfortable.

    I'm looking to do one or two articles on the 44 Special in the next year. One may compare the original with the current model Bulldog and another may be a full load test with the Ruger flattop (if I ever get mine). I'll include three cast bullet weights and shot loads.



    Thank you for the information.

    I dub thee Uncle Rocky.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks, I DO feel a bit avuncular!
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
    Thanks, I DO feel a bit avuncular!


    Well, with all of the work,time and love that you have invested in educating all of us, avuncular is an understatement.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    Though however I may feel, I cannot call you dad.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Heaven forfend. Plain 'ol Rocky is just fine.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    [:D] That'll do!
  • gunprofitgunprofit Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I used to have a Charter Arms 44 Special Bulldog. I couldn't get jacketed bullets to stay put. I ended up using LSWC bullets and crimped hard into the bullet crimping groove.

    Something you should check, put 5 rounds into the gun, then shoot 4 of them. Open the cylinder and remove that last unfired round. If the bullet stayed put and is still crimped in the crimping groove, you are good to go. My jacketed bullets would pull themselves out so far that they stuck out of the cylinder and then you couldn't rotate it, thus jamming the gun.

    Jacketed bullets are .429" and lead bullets are .430", plus usually have a much more pronounced crimp groove. At the velocities that you get from a 44 special, most jacketed bullets don't expand anyway. Besides 44 is a big hole just by itself.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That's a great tip. I'd go so far as to mark that fifth one and shoot TWO other four-shot strings in front of it. If it doesn't walk the crimp in eight shots, it's probably gonna hold tight.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • pietro75pietro75 Member Posts: 7,048
    edited November -1
    Interesting, A very good friend gave me this CA Bulldog for my first CCW gun in Michigan eight years ago.

    It belonged to his father and he had the loads so hot that occasionally the fifth round would walk a bit. That is when he knew it was a little too hot. I do not intend to get that hot. I want something that I can count on.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why use pipsqeek loads under expensive JHP bullets?
    Use 800fps loads and 200 grain lead SWC bullets for practice.
    The 44SPL is unpleasant with 250 grain bullets at anywhere near 1000fps
    in light guns.
    Light handguns act as inertial bullet pullers. Lead bullets having deep crimping grooves stay put under heavy loads.
    I've chronographed Keith loads using his 235 Gr gas check hollow points
    over 17.5 gr of 2400 at 1250fps out of a 4" Charter Target Bulldog.
    Recoil was heavy but you have magnum power in a 20oz gun.
    The Charter rubber grip modified by grinding to the S&W Model 60,337 or 442 configuration works best making the gun more shootable. Flattening the wedge in the rear where grips come together reduces felt recoil and gives a better grip on the revolver.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree with using cast bullets for most shooting in ANY non-magnum revolver. I shoot a lot of Speer swaged 240 SWC bullets in my Bulldog. I do not call a 240 slug at 800 fps a "pipsqueak" load by any means. Nor have I ever had anyone who thinks that way volunteer to stand in front of one.

    The Bulldog has fixed sights, so the smart thing to do is adjust your load to the point of aim - or as near it as you can get. Light bullets shot fast almost always hit low from a revolver; heavy ones shot slower hit higher. Most factory guns are designed to hit at point of aim with the most common factory ammo (naturally). With a 44 Special, that would be a 240 bullet at about 750 fps.

    For defense, I carry WW Silvertips, BTW. Good load.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The term pipsqueek was a relative term suggesting those loads fall far short of what the cartridge is capable of.
    Energy for energy,light bullets at high velocity are easier on the shooter than heavy bullets at low velocity, especially fired from a short barrel.
    Let's not confuse target practice ammo with self defense loads.
    Whatever the fixed sights are regulated at, they can be reregulated using a file or a torch and welding rod to shoot your self defense load if necessary.
    Paper punching using 800fps loads can be for grouping.
    Elmer Keith found both high and low speed 44Spl loads shot to the same point of aim. He was Mister 44Spl/Magnum and did a lot of work
    on the caliber. He used heavier revolvers so it may or may not hold true with the light Charter Arms. I know I haven't adjusted mine
    since I first sighted it in.
    A 200 gr flat point 44 cal lead bullet at 1000fps has a long history of effectiveness out of a 7 1/2" 44-40 SAA. The issue should be discomfort at the receiving end. Using these guidelines I would like to at least match it with 44Spl handloads.
    Save the 240 grain JHP bullets for the 44 Mag. They probably wouldn't open up at low velocities anyway.
  • Rocky RaabRocky Raab Member Posts: 14,438 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I disagree with the comment that light, fast bullets are easier on the shooter. To get there, you have to load to top-end pressures with a lot of powder. That powder weight adds to recoil, and the high pressure adds a lot to blast. In the 357 Mag, 125-gr loads are decidedly more painful than equivalent energy 158s -- and screaming 110s are the worst of the lot.

    Heavy bullets at lower speed and pressure are MUCH more comfortable to shoot, for both hands and ears. In my opinion, of course.

    Then, of course, there is the terminal effect. Light hollowpoints can fail to reach vitals even on thin-skinned deer, while heavy bullets penetrate clear through almost always.
    I may be a bit crazy - but I didn't drive myself.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not really; try it with the Charter using the same powder since faster powders recoil sharper.
    Again,momentum for momentum the higher velocity, light bullet will have greater energy since energy varies as the square of velocity.
    Conversely, energy for energy, the lighter, faster bullet will yield
    less momentum.
    Jet effect and powder charge weight notwithstanding, I've concluded this to my satisfaction empirically, at least with 44 and 45L calibers.
    You can easily get 500ft lbs energy using a 200 grain lead bullet over a slow powder like 4227 or 2400. Much heavier bullets at slow speed drop you in the 38Spl +p class and run you the risk of jumping the crimp in a light revolver.
    Considering the lack of effect on Mr Simmons of a 40 S&W +P in a perfect center of mass shot, handgunners may need to reappraise their self defense weaponry upward.
    I've been playing with the 44Spl and Magnum since Ruger issued its first Blackhawk and the Son of Sam went on his rampage using a Charter 44.
  • nemesisenforcernemesisenforcer Member Posts: 10,513 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    stick with Unique.

    I use 7.5-7.6 grains in my special loads and it performs just fine.
  • 5mmgunguy5mmgunguy Member Posts: 3,092 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am using 5 grains of bullseye behind a 240 lead SWC bullet. Never could get the jacketed bullets to expand, so why pay the extra money. They are launched at 746 fps.
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