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Anybody have experience with 6AR or 6 AR turbo?
sandwarrior
Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
I was wondering if anyone had hands on experience with these. I'm interested in how good of performance you can get.
I went the 6.5 Grendel route and I like the round for what it's intended. However, I was thinking of getting a little more velocity out of an equally high BC bullet and see what that would do. I also did some work with the 6.8 SPC and found it to be what it sells itself as but, doesn't compare to the 6.5 G when it comes to long range.
Also, if anyone has worked the the 6mm-6.8 (necked down 6.8 SPC.) I'd be interested to know your findings. 6x45 or 6x47 too.
Edit:
Also, to be more specific, I'm looking at this in an AR platform and with a barrel 20" or longer and a twist compatible with the heaviest of 6mm bullets.
If you have bolt gun info I would still like to hear it.
I went the 6.5 Grendel route and I like the round for what it's intended. However, I was thinking of getting a little more velocity out of an equally high BC bullet and see what that would do. I also did some work with the 6.8 SPC and found it to be what it sells itself as but, doesn't compare to the 6.5 G when it comes to long range.
Also, if anyone has worked the the 6mm-6.8 (necked down 6.8 SPC.) I'd be interested to know your findings. 6x45 or 6x47 too.
Edit:
Also, to be more specific, I'm looking at this in an AR platform and with a barrel 20" or longer and a twist compatible with the heaviest of 6mm bullets.
If you have bolt gun info I would still like to hear it.
Comments
I do but it's going to take some time to gather some notes and write a cogent response. Maybe tonight?
Best.
Thanks, looking forward to it.
Yes, Thank you. I looked at it and asked the seller what the twist was. Found out it was 1-14". After much deliberation I felt that I really wasn't gaining anything as I already have a 5.56 with a 1-8" that will stabilize the same weight bullet. So I didn't bid. I would assume you could get a tad more velocity from the bigger diameter bullet, but not enough to warrant stepping up if that's all I could run through it. I was thinking more along the lines of a 1-10" or maybe even a 1-8" so that I could run the heaviest of 6mm bullets...albeit a little slow.
I would have to agree without any complaint. I took a total of nine deer with the 85 gr. Sierra out of a .243. Most all had multiple exit wounds and went down immediately. I would think that even 500 fps slower at reasonable distances the 6x45/47 would be quite the ticket for a lightweight rifle.
Also, being more of a .25 fan than a 6mm/.243 fan I have looked into chambering for a .257x45/47 and a .257 PPC wildcat and a 257(6.35mm) in the Grendel/ 6mmAR case. What I found is that unless I am willing to become the wildcatter, it doesn't seem like it will happen. While in truth I would love to facilitate it's happening, I just don't have the resources to perpetuate it's continuance. Because I, for one, would certainly be more than happy to see it happen. It's like .257 and .270 purposely get overlooked sometimes when it comes to round development. The public is the final voter in that saga though. Enough of the average shooter has to be convinced it's a worthwhile endeavor for it to be marketable.
I have a friend who's son wants a rifle now. I have a .243 that I could sell him inexpensively. His thought on that was, "You can find 30-06 in any Mom and Pop store in the U.S." I told him that's true. And, anywhere you can find 30-06 you can also find .243, .308 .270 as well. You will always find those rounds. In good years I've even seen the 30-06 almost sold out (one bullet weight was) and the others right there on the shelf.
sandwarrior,
This has become the caliber to receive the most attention since the 6.5 cartridges hit the big time a few years ago. Sure the 6PPC started the whole shebang off but the 6mm area of development has burgeoned because the internet experts have finally found out that the 6mm will outshine the 6.5's in the efficiency department and are slightly easier on the barrels. This also applies to the .25 caliber selections but there is a dearth of bullet development to really put it over the top, as you well know.
For those trying to figure out what these cartridges are without doing a lot of searching, the 6mmAR is the 6PPC with slight improvements mostly in capacity. The Turbo simply increases that case capacity a little more and has a sharp shoulder.
I started out using the 6PPC a long time ago but left the point blank benchrest arena to those more suited to *-retentiveness. I found the 22PPC to be very effective on prairie dogs so I have no use for the 6PPC at all now.
Improving the case to achieve this minor amount of velocity is laudable insofar as it improves our knowledge base and adds to the selection of cartridges available within this spectrum. In reality, it's simply splitting hairs in order to sell an idea. I'm not trying to take anything away from these cartridges as I think they have a place and provide an accurate alternative to the .223/5.56 cartridges. But there is not enough significance to the improvement to warrant the cost and dedication to these cartridges. The greatest advantage I see is the ability to utilize the smaller AR15 chassis (lower) instead of jumping up to the AR10 lowers.
The 6x45mm and the 6x47mm cartridges based on the .223/.222 Mag. cases are superb for light to medium weight bullets at moderate velocities. I find these two cartridges to be my choice for recoil sensitive shooters, some women and youngsters, of course. They are accurate, mild recoil, easy to load for and relatively inexpensive to use. They come closest to being the ideal between a cartridge used for hunting at moderate distances and having the same rifle be usable for target shooting. However, the issue of velocity and distance does have a bearing on performance in the end result. They do not have long legs.
The 6.8 SPC is best left alone. I am a huge fan of new cartridge development but there are always a few that would have been better off left for dead and the 6.8 SPC is one of those unfortunately. I did support it originally as presented and for a short while after working with it but I have decided it should just die. Remington again, deserves to be castigated for their involvement in this cartridge.
Here's my take on your situation:
Skip the little improvements and get on with a cartridge and case suited to accuracy and range. If you want to stay out of wildcatting I suggest getting started with the 6-6.5x47 Lapua. Yes, it needs the AR10 platform but Oh Well. If the cost of cases cause heart palpitations, just switch to using the 22-250 Rem. cases for your reloading. Note that this cartridge is a simple variation on a theme which can trace it's development back several decades and supports the phrase, `nothing new under the sun'. The tiny refinements don't disguise the family lineage but the quality of the brass is an advantage when using the Lapua cases. I have no complaints with WW or Remington products but I spend more time sorting and fixing whereas with Lapua I load and shoot.
If you don't mind a little wildcatting, I could suggest that you just stick with the .22-250 necked up to use the 6mm bullets. The case taper, moderate shoulder angle and moderate case capacity make it a superb choice for semi-auto feeding and performance. It's a simple trip through the sizing die and on to the seater die.
All of this is for naught if you have an AR15 lower currently and want to use an upper to save the cost of a complete rifle.
Best.
Many thanks for your perspective on the 6mm AR family of cartridges. I have been looking at it but was struggling with the thought of "did it make sense?". Now I will ignore it and stay with the .223 in my AR. I prefer bolt guns in the normal calibers available for greater distances and casual target shooting.
I am curious, what do you recommend as a good choice for casual target shooting at 600 yards or so? I currently have been using a .308 but have been eyeing other calibers like the .260 remington or the .300 WSM. I suspect a good scope and trigger time make a bigger difference than cartridge selection.
"I suspect a good scope and trigger time make a bigger difference than cartridge selection."
Yes, great glass with a finely tuned trigger is the best combination for control.
I have been and always will be a big fan of the .308 Win. for any intermediate/long range competition and hunting in general. There is a tremendous amount of information available for reference. The only drawback can be the amount of recoil which can be troublesome for some shooters especially when firing from the prone position.
The range of cartridges suitable for 600 yard targets can start with the .22-250 and the 6mmBR (+ variations) then range up through virtually any cartridge that the shooter can use consistently with some degree of comfort. I do like several of the 6mm cartridges for both accuracy and ease of shooting.
6 XC
6-6.5 x 47 Lapua
.243 Win.
6mm Rem.
6mm International
6mm-250
and a host of wildcat variations
The .260 Rem. is excellent as are the 6.5x47 Lapua and the 6.5 Creedmoor
There are a couple of 7mm that succeed also but the recoil starts to to become a factor like the .308 Win.
I prefer the milder cartridges because I like to shoot more and enjoy it to the maximum.
Best.
Thanks much for the reply. As you know, I tried a couple angles on this but nowhere near what you and others have delved into it. My situation is I have a lower that I'd like a second upper for. The upper I have on there now is an LMT 5.56, 1-8" twist 16" carbine. I went this route this time as I found the 20" unwieldy in CQB situations. However, the 24" 6.5 Grendel that I had was woundrous on the range for accuracy. And decent on the velocity as well. What I found was these are not miracle cases, just one or two High BC bullets that fit in that case in an AR-15 platform. And like you said just a step up in power from the 5.56 case. That's what led me to start thinking about the 6x45 simply for ease of transition. Although, as you know, with really high BC bullets you run into length problems. Moreso, with the 6x47 (222 mag case). I can run 75 and 77 gr. HPBT's using the magazine, but not the A-max's.
So, it's pretty much an affirmation you've given me about what I thought. If I stay with the AR-15 platform I'm either length or power limited. Actually, both really, if I'm trying to step up in power from the 5.56 case. With the 6.5 Grendel and 123 Lapua Scenar's I could get out to 500 and 600 pretty good. But not as good as the 6mm's based off a .473 case. I'll have to save a lot of pennies to get into -10 platform so I may just shelve the idea for now, and go on to a couple other projects/ideas that appeal to me.
Thank you again for your reply.
-SW
black hills is supposedly loading ammo for the guns..
I know one is the basic 6x45mm, the other chambering is new, or so I understand.
In my limited experiance with Ar-10/SR-25s, Some radical work has to be done if ones wanting consistant-has-to-work performance. Whole new can of worms..
Just an FYI:
I also find it interesting that Les Baer has announced his 'new' .264 LBC-AR cartridge. This is obviously a 'work-around' decision to alleviate the licensing cost from Bill Alexander for producing barrels with the 6.5 Grendel chamber.
"Black Hills has new loads being built exclusively for Les Baer Custom at his request and with his assistance in load development. The .264 LBC-AR is loaded with a 123-grain Hornady A-Max bullet is available exclusively from Les Baer Custom. It's designed for use in Les Baer Custom rifles as well as rifles of other manufacturers, and will also perform in rifles chambered for the 6.5 Grendel cartridge. The brass is produced by Hornady and head stamped .264 LBC-AR."
Best.
OOPS!
There is also the .30 AR developed by Remington for use in the AR15 platforms. It could be necked down as well.
"The .30 Remington AR cartridge was created in 2008 by Remington Arms. It is a rebated rim cartridge designed to fit Remington's R-15 semiautomatic hunting rifle. It was designed to fit the dimensional constraints of the AR-15 magazine and is based on a modification of the .450 Bushmaster, which in turn was based on the .284 Winchester."
.30 Remington AR
Specifications
Case type Rebated rim
Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .341 in (8.7 mm)
Base diameter .500 in (12.7 mm)
Rim diameter .473 in (12.0 mm)
Case length 1.53 in (39 mm)
Overall length 2.26 in (57 mm)
Case capacity 44.0 gr H2O (2.86 cm3)
Maximum pressure 55,000 psi (379 MPa)
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
125 gr (8.1 g) Soft point 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s) 2,176 ft?lbf (2,950 J)
125 gr (8.1 g) Ballistic tip 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s) 2,176 ft?lbf (2,950 J)
This gets you close the capacity of the 6.5x47 Lapua but usable in the AR15 Mags.
Best.
I forgot about the .30 Rem AR. I thought it would be quite the ticket in a short action bolt gun when I saw it come out. Of course the purpose was to put it into the AR-15 platform.
My biggest question on them is how strong is the bolt. I know of several complaints with the 6.5 Grendel that bolts have broken. The big thing with that is all were reloads and they were overloaded. I got that straight from Bill Alexander himself. Most indicated that the bolt started to come unlocked. The overload was actually caused when the 'timing' (cycling function) started to take place. So as an addendum to the question, what is done with BR face bolts (.473) and WSSM (.532) to make them strong enough to take the higher pressure than the 6.5 Grendel case (.442" face)?
After the first couple posts on this thread, I felt since I had already worked with the 6.5 and while I liked it and it could do what it said, it isn't really competitive at distance. I kind of felt the same way about the 6mm AR/turbo. I wanted to see about doing a 6mm/6.5mm/7mm BR (found one here). Maybe even neck it to .257". But the bolt issue bothered me. FWIW, I'm leaning towards a 25 WSSM upper. I load for that in a bolt gun still and they (while trying at times) can be outstanding performers. I thought about a 7mm WSSM but it would only work with 140 VLDs, not the 168's and 180's. It will work with 168 SMK's though. Every time I think of a round my mind 'next-steps' to the wildcat.
A note on the 6.5 licensing costs. It may be that but, sometimes I think it's also a way to get around the rigid parameters Bill set with the license. He's very particular about gas tube lengths, throat leades, twists etc. If you're going to cut a 6.5 G barrel it has to have all of that. Flexibility might very well be another reason for calling it something else.
Anyhow, a lot of good discussion here.