.45 LC reloads...something's strange!

bamaboy473

First post and glad to be here.

I have a new Hornady die set (New Dimension) for my .45LC. Ran a few cases up the resizing die and found a mystery.... I can place a bullet into the supposedly-sized case and it falls all the way in.
The bullets are Hornady 230FMJ .451

That means that either the die isn't machined right (doubtful) or the bullets are too small (doubtful as well) The die is set to within 1/2mm of the shell holder and this is new brass, lubed.

That leaves me as the problem...so what have I done and what will correct it?

shoff14

Did you measure the bullets to make sure that they are what they say they are. Always, always measure and weigh bullets to make sure they are packaged correctly, mistakes do happen.

perry shooter

Most 230 grain round nose bullets are under-size. some as small as .450. Most 45 Colt Revolver /45 long colt dies are set up to take . 452 or even .454 bullets are you using a set of dies that have a Belling die or have a sizing decapping plug that expands the inside of the case if so you may need to polish a few thousands off this belling plug . Some 45 Colt revolver cases have a groove stamped into the outside of the case to keep bullet from sliding down too far. Most revolver bullets are LONGER and heavier and larger diameter then 230 ball that is made for 45ACP.

B17-P51

What happens when you don't resize a case and place a bullet on top? It sounds like shoff said, maybe you got .429 or .410 bullets in the wrong box.
Please describe"all the way in"

bamaboy473

perry shooter seems to have hit the reason for the loose fit that allowed the bullets to fall all the way into the case. We bought .451 bullets. Those seem to be for .45ACP rounds, not a .45LC. I guess the dealer didn't know that, either, so it's back to the store.

Anyway, I'll have to trade the .451 box for some .452s and try it again.

After years of loading .45ACP, it really never occurred to me that the LongColt would take a different bullet.

Thanks for the help everybody.

Pearyw

If you want to use them in your 45 Colt, run your case about half way into your 45 acp sizing die and then use your 45 acp expander and it will tighten enough to use the .451 bullets.

bamaboy473

A good way to fix a simple sizing challenge, but all of my loading stuff got taken by hurricane Ivan five years ago, so this is first of the rebuilding process. Lee loader kit and the .45LC dies are it for now.

I can say that things in reloading have changed a BUNCH in the past 10 years. I got the wrong powder from one dealer; got the wrong bullets from another dealer...something I'd never thought possible a few years back. Nowadays the dealers will tell you that they don't know much about reloading; and I'm in Alabama!

...but I now have the right brass, a sleeve of primers, a line on the right bullets and I guess I'll try to find Bullseye or...is there a "standard" powder that every body uses now for regular plinking?

Ambrose

I use Unique powder for .45 Colt. In your situation, I would back up the expander ball until I got a good fit on those bullets. No reason why 230 FMJ's shouldn't load in a .45 Colt case.

bamaboy473

Here's showing my newness to this caliber...but these NewDimension dies are a mystery to me, too. Right now I want to get the sizing/depriming right, and I haven't gone to the second die yet, which is the expander (I think). No need to put a lip on the case until the bullet to case sizing deal is solved, right?

In the sizing die, the depriming pin isn't anywhere near the case size, so I think all I have to work with is the sizing part. Is that right?

I called Hornady today and they're sending me instructions for the dies...but who'd have thought that I'd need freaking instructions for reloading dies! I should've stuck to .270 and .444!

perry shooter

The RCBS Cowboy dies really work well for lead bullets as one Die bells the case mouth ...Lead bullets are Cheaper [:)] dont lead the bore if the right size >001 over bore diameter" and you use the right lube[:)] and are easy on the barrel [:D] my match 1911's get 100,000 per barrel and then are replaced for reasons other then a worn bore[:D][^]

Duck Head

I reloaded 45LC for ages and everything modern is made to load 451 bullets. Even after you "expand" the neck to accept the bullet it won't fall in let alone right after you size the case.Buy a cheap caliper set,inside and outside measurements are capable with them.Can you feel resistance when you size the case? Common sense will tell you if you are reducing the outside diameter of the case. Just like sizing rifle cases. Measure the inside dia. of your case after "sizing" plus measure your bullets.I'll bet you don't have 45 cal. bullets.If you have the correct dies and they are made correctly even 451 bullets shouldn't FALL in a case sized for 454 bullets before belling them.Just like was said above, you can get mistakes from the mfg. Nobody gives a *%$& no more and sends crap out to make a buck. No wonder we are doomed as a Country. But that's another story. Good luck,Hope this helps

bamaboy473

The cases do encounter resistance while they're being placed into the sizing/depriming die; as much resistance as any other case I've sized.

While my personal opinion (hope) is that FMJ bullets from Hornady would be about as perfect as they come, I'm taking a case and a bullet to a machine shop to measure them. I'll report back.

The expander was never used after the first case. no need to use one until we get either the case tighter or larger diameter bullets.

The Hornady guy said that .451 was too small for the .45LC case. This is just bizarre that there are different size requirements within the .45 caliber family. Never heard of it before, and measuring today will tell us more.

Rocky Raab

One might argue that since the 45 Colt was there first, all the OTHER 45s are "wrong." In truth, there are dimensional discrepancies like this in almost every bore diameter. In .22-caliber there are .221, .223, .224 and even .228" bullets for various cartridges, for example.

Still, I think there's something wrong here. The sizer for the 45 Colt ought to be taking the mouth diameter down to WELL below size. A .451" bullet should not even begin to go into a sized but unexpanded case. The only three things it could be (if I read correctly) are the brass, the die, or the bullets. One of those is dimensioned poorly.

bamaboy473

I've found a shop with good michs and will be taking 3 bullets, 3 sized cases and 3 new cases. The die will go get measured, too.

With Winchester cases and Hornady bullets and die, this is going to be interesting. Makes me nervous that any of those components would be anything less than perfect.

Rocky Raab

You never know. That might have been the very first die cut with a brand-new (and hence slightly oversize) reamer.

perry shooter

I forgot to mention different brands of brass will have different wall thickness . When I used to load thousands of rounds of 45ACP hard ball loads with 230 grain bullets a year. I used WCC Match or W. W. brass the Remington and TZZ brass was too thin and with the same size sizing die you could push the nose of the bullet and it would cause the bullet to slide into the case this could happen also during feeding from magazine and give both much higher pressure [V]and loss of accuracy. I think this is one reason the military used black sealer on the bullet and inside case mouth . I have 3 sizing dies for my Star progressive reloader they are each .0005 different and If I am loading Federal Remington TZZ and some others I may change sizing die to match the best case to bullet grip. The reason I did not state this in my first post is never thought about 45 REVOLVER cases but they could have the same difference in case wall thickness. In my opinion the reason you dont have this trouble in bottle neck rifle cases is the expander ball on decapping pin sets the inside diameter of the neck not the sizing die.

Pearyw

I also live in Alabama, and there are a lot of people who sell reloading supplies and equipment that have no idea how to reload ammo. I have been doing it for 45 years and there is no substitute for experience.

bamaboy473

I took the brass and bullets to 3 different places in order to eliminate a bad reading or un-calibrated mich.

ID on the new, unsized, Winchester brass was .452

ID on the sized brass averaged out to .451

OD on the bullets was either .450 or .451

I'm calling Hornady about sending the whole lot back to them and let them sort it out. I see no reason to involve the dealers because they aren't responsible for any of this.

bamaboy473

OK,now we learned something new. Seems that there IS a difference between older dies and newer ones; the new ones ARE larger.

Cowboy Action shooters use .455 lead (according to the Hornady rep) and they asked die-makers to loosen up their dies. New Dimension dies are designed for those larger diameter bullets.

This is why the .451 FMJ bullets are loose, while he thinks that using .452 will be just fine.

For those of us that load for .45LC with New Dimension dies, it's no longer advisable to use any bullets from the .451 family.

Hope this information is useful. P.S. The Hornady guy was as helpful as could be; they're good people.

Rocky Raab

Yes they are. And thanks for posting that tidbit.

It's funny, kinda. Back some 40 years ago, most 45 Colt dies were made to the original specifications for the cartridge - which used lead bullets of .454 to .455". Along came jacketed bullets, which in .45-caliber were universally made .451 or .452" in diameter in deference to .45 ACP specs. So manufacturers changed their dies to size 45 Colt brass enough to hold those smaller bullets. NOW, along come Cowboy Action Shooters and demand that 45 Colt dies be made large again!

I think RCBS has the best idea. They still make their standard 45 Colt dies to suit .451 and .452" bullets (jacketed OR cast), but also offer special "Cowboy" dies sized for the extra-fat .454" cast bullets those folks use.

My own dies are Pacific Durachrome, that I bought in 1976 or so. They're a kind of compromise. The sizer brings them down enough to suit any bullet, but the expander is a tiny bit too small for cast bullets over .452" and a tiny bit too big to give a tight fit if a jacketed bullet is edging towards .450" diameter. These days, I hardly ever shoot jacketed bullets in that cartridge, so it works just fine.

perry shooter

You could always use a 45ACP carbide die set sizing die after you size with the 45 colt die to just size the revolver cases the first 1/2 inch this would hold the bullets even if .450

shoff14

The last question that needs to be answered is: Why don't you have your own calipers and micrometers?

They are selling dirt dirt cheap right now on ebay, BUY SOME!

bamaboy473

[xx(] yeah, you got me on that question, shoff! I guess that losing so much stuff in a hurricane has caused me to really think about whether a mich is going to be used more than a few times a decade.

That said, the three places I took the brass/bullets to all read close to specs...but were not all the same. To that I say, if it doesn't fit, then the size doesn't matter....it ain't right.

Heck, I'm a plinker that's getting more excited about doing it again after a long dry spell..and finding that the basics of reloading have changed spooked me. Now that all is good again, who knows...maybe I'll become the new Black Bart in SASS and scare lots of kids or something!

gunprofit

I tried Hornady dies once and only once. Don't care for them and will never buy them again. If them folks at Hornady are making their dies larger then they need to put it on the box so you know what you are buying.

Also, since when did SASS guys all start using .454 dia bullets. Guys with old Colts might use them, but most SaSS shooters I know are using modern guns (such as Ruger) with .451 barrels.

Again, I don't care for Hornady folks.

bamaboy473

Since I'm a newbie to the New reloading methods, my best response is that I'm confused about why something as basic as bullet and case sizing has been altered by..........cheeet, by politics?

If Cowboy Action decided that .455 was the fun bullet size to use, why?

Anybody care to give a reason why .455 was made King, and why die makers are not placing "information" stickers on their dies?

I'm still p..o...d that what would seem to have been a simple reloading setup has become a...well, a situation. Heck, I bought a pound of TrailBoss because the dealer said, "..that's what everybody is using" only to learn that I have to replace that, too, because Trail Boss is for lead bullets and not FMJ.

I'll work through this...and hope guys that read this thread will learn from it....but would sure like the good old days when we knew that a caliber was the same from year to year, eh?

perry shooter

The Cowboy shooter did not chose the 454/455 bullets . The ORIGINAL colt model 1873 had a 454 bore and for the most part this size stayed 454 in all first generation colt revolvers BEFORE WW II the 45acp was designed and for some strange reason Colt came up with a 451/452 bore size. With loading and reloading you need the bullet to be slightly smaller to slightly larger then bore size to get good accuracy remember the military was looking for function at close range.NOT GROUP SIZE. Ammo makers make Their case to fit Their bullet. With a brass case you can make or with the right die resize them to grip any diameter bullet . Easy to do with a rifle as posted earlier with a die to squeeze the out side down and the decapping plug coming back out to make the inside of neck the correct size.However with straight wall PISTOL cases the die ONLY squeezes the out side lets say you have a .451 bullet and the case wall thickness is .008 now the inside of the die must be .451 plus .016 s "total .467" minus how hard you want it to grip bullet and how much the brass will spring back . now lets take a bullet that is .4505 and a different brand of brass that has case wall thickness .0068 "total.4641" With the same die the bullet will fall down in the case. I think you found that with MOST pistol dies you can get into a combination that does not work. On top of this virgin brass cases when made are very soft in the case mouth area every time you fire it gets harder and springs back more this will also make the bullet loose. Bottom line if you had a smaller sizing die and a case mouth belling die as used in STAR reloading machines then you can make match grade ammo with bullets of different diameters. I have 3 sizing dies and 3 Belling plugs for each of my star reloaders If I use thick WW or WCC Match cases and .452 sierra or nosler bullets with the smallest sizing die the loaded case will look like a coke bottle . I hope this helps if you want to see some pictures of stars double click on my name and send me an email

bamaboy473

Thanks for the education, perry shooter. While I now understand why we have a difference, it raises the question of what I can shoot in my new Ruger Vaquero .45LC.

If I want to shoot lead, should I get .454 or should I stay with .452? From what I think I heard the Hornady rep say, my sizing die seems to built for the .454/.455 bullets, but would that size be too tight for a new pistol?

Pearyw

I load .452" lead bullets in all my modern 45 Colts. I have a Colt New Service that was made in 1920 and I load .454" for it. If it had to be only one size, I would use the .452" as it will work in either one. I run into the same thing with 44-40. Most of the modern guns are made with .429" barrels so they can use the same barrels as a 44 magnum. I have an old S&W 3rd model Frontier that I buy the old .427" bullets for.

perry shooter

It sucks that there are so many different diameter pistol bullets the 9MM and 357/38 family are all close but not exact on top of that many old time cartridges used a heeled bullet like a 22 Long Rifle is made today under this type of cartridge the bullet is the same diameter as the Case the bullet itself is smaller in diameter for just the part that goes into the case. The 41 Colt and 38S&W are two such cases as first built so we Have 38 /9mm bullets in .355 .356. .357. up to .360 and I dont even know what diameter bullet the 9MM Makarov takes.Rifle s have the same problem but eaiser to reload because of the inside plug on the decapping pin . The only way to get the correct size bullet is to SLUG ? measure the diameter of the BORE. I think the ruger barrels are .452.

gunprofit

Nobody here needs to make excuses for manufacturers that stray from the norm. We have SAAMMI for just that reason. We want manufacturers to stick to a pressure levels, bullet diamenter, barrel bore standards, etc etc. If they deviate from the norm, then by God they need to put if on the package. In the case of the long colt cartridge, someone name a firearm that was made in the last 60 plus years that wasn't the .451 diameter norm. Again, if Hornady is going to change things back to 60 plus years ago, then dog gone it, tell the buyer before he spends his hard earned money on something that won't work for him !!!

Ambrose

The latest issue of Handloader magazine (February-March 2010) has an article by Brian Pearce that states: "I recall purchasing several .45 Colt dies (from three different manufacturers) during the 1970s that would not size cases adequately to hold bullets. After sizing and neck expanding cases, bullets as large as .453 inch could be placed into the case mouth, which would drop into the case and rest on top of the powder charge!"

My RCBS .45 Colt dies were made in 1973 and I have not had this problem, but it apparently existed so quite likely bamaboy473 is not doing anything wrong but just has defective dies.

bamaboy473

Well, good news. Hornady confirmed that their dies are now made to accomodate CA shooting using lead at .454 or so. FMJ of .452 is the size they suggest and build for, so I got a .45ACP sizing die and that did the trick; the .451FMJ bullets are now going to fit fine.

Another question came up after the sizing situation got settled. The Hodgen HP-38 shows 5.9gr for the .45ACP and 200gr bullets. No mention of .45LC, of course.

When I place 5.9gr into the .45LC case, it fills about 1/3 of the case; leaving a whole lot of air. Is this going to be a problem or does anybody have a charge for HP38 that I can use?

perry shooter

Hello Most 45 colt shooters use heavier bullets then the 200 grain. Be aware in reloading you are on thin Ice anytime you try to guess at amount of powder to use . YOU CAN NOT use the load just because it has the correct diameter bullet . The case capacity is KEY . all smokeless powder is Progressive in burn and pressure rate . for instance a heavey load of Bulls-eye powder with a 255 grain bullet in 45 long colt would most likely Blow out the part of the case over the feed ramp on a 45ACP with the same powder load. a load printed for 45ACP may stick a bullet in the barrel of a revolver. The best example I can think of is look at 38 special loads and compare with 357 mag loads with the same weight bullet and powder you need more powder in the larger case. to get same velocity.

bamaboy473

Your comments tell me that using the 200gr JHP bullets that my son got for me wouldn't be wise because guessing at the charge might cause damage; whether to shooter or gun.

Given that I'd be purely guessing at the charge rate, looks like I have a box of JHP bullets for .45ACP to unload and replace them with correct stuff.

Thanks for setting reality on the line.

Freightman

There is 45 Colt loading data for bullets as light as 165gr look at
http://stevespages.com/page8a.htm