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.308-.416 Rigby and/or .338-.416 Rigby
Alan Rushing
Member Posts: 9,002 ✭✭
OK guys ... grab a glass of wine, a can of beer, or what ever liquid refreshment you prefer. Set down, get comfortable, don't go to sleep yet, unless it is a short meditating nap! Get yourself into your thinking mode. Please bare with me if you will!
IF you were going to create a near perfect round or your dream cartridge in the .338 caliber (and/or .308 caliber), and using the non-belted .416 Rigby, as the parent case.
IF you are using a quality, durable bolt action with the best VLD bullets.
IF the cartridges were to use a bolt action no longer than the .338 Lapua (with a max OAL of 94.50 I believe).
IF you wanted to use your dream .338 to take a 300 grain bullet from the same length action as the present .338 Lapua, but not have to set the 300 grain bullet deep into the case, nor have it down into the powder column.
IF the shoulder was going to be between 30-40 degrees and you wanted the optimal length neck for your dream cartridge.
IF you have optimal dimensions for your case, with great characteristics for hand-loading and the best potential for long range accuracy that you could come up with ...
Starting with the neck: how long? Why
Shoulder: what angle? Why
Body taper: what slope? Why
What if any other considerations would you want to incorporate into the brass/case?
(( I am aware of many of the same .338 and .308 calibers that are readily (or less so) available out in the real world. I'd like to keep this out of what is adequate for hunting this, that, or the other thing or critter. If we can side-step a discussion of 30-30s, 30-06s, .308s, or the merits of the well established belted mags that we are all well aware, it would be appreciated. ))
I am sure that a number of you have been involved now or in the past with wildcats that you or friends have worked with ... if we can tap into some of that knowledge and experience it would be great ! ! ! ))
[:)] [:D] [:)] [:D] [:)]
IF you were going to create a near perfect round or your dream cartridge in the .338 caliber (and/or .308 caliber), and using the non-belted .416 Rigby, as the parent case.
IF you are using a quality, durable bolt action with the best VLD bullets.
IF the cartridges were to use a bolt action no longer than the .338 Lapua (with a max OAL of 94.50 I believe).
IF you wanted to use your dream .338 to take a 300 grain bullet from the same length action as the present .338 Lapua, but not have to set the 300 grain bullet deep into the case, nor have it down into the powder column.
IF the shoulder was going to be between 30-40 degrees and you wanted the optimal length neck for your dream cartridge.
IF you have optimal dimensions for your case, with great characteristics for hand-loading and the best potential for long range accuracy that you could come up with ...
Starting with the neck: how long? Why
Shoulder: what angle? Why
Body taper: what slope? Why
What if any other considerations would you want to incorporate into the brass/case?
(( I am aware of many of the same .338 and .308 calibers that are readily (or less so) available out in the real world. I'd like to keep this out of what is adequate for hunting this, that, or the other thing or critter. If we can side-step a discussion of 30-30s, 30-06s, .308s, or the merits of the well established belted mags that we are all well aware, it would be appreciated. ))
I am sure that a number of you have been involved now or in the past with wildcats that you or friends have worked with ... if we can tap into some of that knowledge and experience it would be great ! ! ! ))
[:)] [:D] [:)] [:D] [:)]
Comments
Personaly I wouldn't try to re-invent the wheel, and I'd realize that the cartridge is just one small part of the entire package when it comes to accuracy (at any range).
IF I was starting from scratch for a LR rig, I'd contact someone like Kilby Allen and have him build a rifle around one of his wildcats. That way it would be a proven round, in a complete package of stock, action, barrel, optics, mounts and most importantly gunsmithing AND it will be tested and NOT released to you until it is perfect. That would only leave the biggest variable to work on (the shooter).
Would you believe the 91.50 to 94.50 inches, will be just about the perfect barrel length! [:D]
I should be able to milk all umphff from that cartridge/round and optimalize the potential accuracy of the VLD bullet on that cartridge and that barrel. Don't you think! [:)] [:D] [8D]
"I had a dream" ... and I will finalize between 91.50 and 94.50 inches, that will be the ideal length for the dream barrel for this dream rig. [:D]
"Excuse me" for leaving the units of measure in question! [:I]
Sorry about that ... [:I]
With an cartridge OAL, no greater than the present .338 Lapua? [:I]
What is it? I think a max of 3.600 inches or about what in mm ~ 91.5 or so? ((I haven't any .338 Lapua here to measure in mm. or inches!)) [:)]
Mike & Bob ... have sent emails to you all ... OK?
"(with a max OAL of 94.50 I believe). "..........well almost 8 feet is a lot to work with but[;)]............. .338 lapua does this now
As does the 338 edge via a necked up 300 rum case
The .416 Rigby will stop a just about anything, so there you go, two near perfect rounds already made and all of the headaches done for you. By the way these are both some of my favor rounds anyway so I am kind of parcel to them.
Don`t reinvent the wheel[:D]
I personally have nothing against any particular cartridge that I can think of right now, at least not any that I've ever used. As always, I take the opportunity to try other folks pride and joys out, at any opportunity!
I have hunted a range of settings and conditions, like most hunters that I know. So that means nearly every sort of weather that is dished out to any of us.
I tend to favor hunting the more open, sage, mountains and the edges or burns of mtn timberlands. Been in the brushlands and thick timber, just favor the more open views and hunting, for the most part.
The probability of me hunting or shooting out of N.A. is slim, to none. There might be opportunities to hunt Alaska again, (hope so, though it won't be this season)! I love the mountains, the only thing better than seeing what is over the ridge, is to check out the backside of the next ridge!
Yes, I know what it takes to be dependable (on it's end)) to cleanly and efficiently harvest or put-down a range of game that I've hunted, or might bump into in the dark of night.
For hunting generally I like to use the lightest caliber that will do a good job of anchoring whatever game that I am hunting, under varying circumstances.
For the sort of hunting that I tend to do ... I lean towards, very good velocity, flat trajectory and for me, and very importantly great accuracy. I use the highest BC and the best quality bullets, that will open well for the distance, velocity and game that I am after ... and able to "afford".
When I lived in Alaska, I knew folks that hunted everything with the same cartridge, bullet and rig. Set-ups, that I would have felt reasonably comfortable and secure with IF I were going out and searching for the biggest, meanest and most tenacious (did I say biggest?) Kodiak Brown or Arctic Polar in the fastest, closest most dangerous encounters that anyone has experienced!
CAN big bears and other big game be taken with a .30-06 {or even "lesser") cartridges? Of course, and if I HAD to, I'd use what ever was in my hands, or most readily available. I have been there, and done that (not hunting them though!)
I have known of people purposely hunting bear, with (IMHO) bullets/calibers: too small, too light, and/or fast. How about 25-35, 32WS, 30-30? (There were folks that shot every bear they saw with 22's.) Ethical? Smart? ... of course not ... beyond stupid, reckless, careless and all of that. Hey, however, they were safe ... in a powerboat, moving along in the river. No problem ... not for them, just for the bear and anyone and everyone that bear encountered before it finally died!
I have not as yet ever gone hunting for any bear and don't plan to either. A good hunt in bear country for me has always been to see them first and far away, and avoid every ehich way possible. Never to surprise them and stay away from them any time and every time possible. (Usually it worked, reasonably well!)
How would you like to be rigged up for hunting sheep in the high, open country packing the 7MM RM with fantastic handloads ... great! Then experience bad encounters of the death defying sort, with even modest sized Grizzlies on the way out? Not the best experience, but a "good" one if you survive!
If I was using the 30-06 (which I know and respect and appreciate) I'd load it with the best bullets for the task, and not doubt myself or the caliber or the cartridge.)
However, when many of the folks that I knew were going to whip barrels, shorter and/or cut-back barrels, ultra light stocks, and the lightest fixed power scopes they could locate. I was very confident (and reasonably comfortable) with the heaviest, and highest quality, highest power variable scope that I could afford. I also used heaviest and most solid steel one piece scope mount and rings. I wanted to assure myself as best possible that the bullet would hit as it did at the range ... right where I wanted it. I plan to have the longest barrel needed to milk all of the power from the case.
At this point what I had been hoping to do was get the best, most dependable and efficient rig, cartridge and scope that I can afford. I have been interested in the cartridge being more accurate than I and the rig being capable of potentiating that accuracy. Not looking for a jungle, brush or thick woods caliber or rig. Not a single shot, lever, pump, or auto. (I have nothing against any of them, have used each at one time or the other.)
I expect to get into a good, solid, dependable bolt action, and have pretty much narrowed that down to two or three contenders.) If I were able to get back to the North country to do some serious, all season hunting, I would be taking this rifle, and I would expect it in one loading or another to cover all the bases.
I am not proficient at ultra long distance shooting as a sniper, target competitor or hunter. However I am a proponent accuracy on all counts. And I am decent in taking what I go after for the way I hunt. I would like a cartridge and rig, that would be very accurate and proficient at much greater distances than I would need for the hunting that I have done (muleys, antelope, goats and sheep ... but would not come up short in the right situation for the much greater distances of serious, personal range shooting or possible longer range hunting potential.
Regarding the cartridge I have some of the more standard, or classic non-belted non-magnums, and I have a coupe of belted magnums. I have had a lot of interest and appreciation of the newer non-belted magnums. Several have the potential to cover many of the characteristics that are most important to me. I was interested in having the most recent R&D info that I could locate regarding the cartridges using the .416 Rigby, in order to compare and contrast that with what folks already know and are familiar with regarding the RUMS. I'm not particularly infatuated with the big bore calibers, but I'm not fearful of checking them out for their parental brass/cases either.
Had not intended to write so much, but with my requests and the responses I have received, figured that I ought, clarify where I was coming from and where I expected to go with all of this. Not attempting to step on toes, compare my needs, wants or uses to yours in a negative way, or stir anyone up needlessly. Take care and have a good week!
and thanks, Alan