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JustC...You once said that 3 shots show...

n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
what the rifle can do and 5 show what the shooter is capable of? Do you really believe this to be a fact? The reason I ask is b/c I've found 2 separate loads that I've put 3 shots inside 5/8" and 3/8" at 200 yards, but with both groups I had two shots that opened up the 5 shot group to about 1.75"...and I really don't think it's me. There was a 10+ mph tailwind going from Right to Left. My "V" blocks (bearings) on my scale are worn too and the scale is hanging up on me, so there's the potential that there could have been a slight variation in the charge.

I guess the reason I'm asking is b/c I really don't believe I (the shooter) is the reason I had two fliers in each group. The problem I'm having is that I'm not sure if my rifle is just not shooting...or it's another variable.

If you truly believe that 3 shots will show what the rifle is capable of, than this thing will flat out shoot (for a medium weight tube, hunting rifle)...if not, then maybe not? Your input would be greatly appreciated.[:)]



PS...the tailwind was for the first 160 yards. The right to left crosswind was about 30 yards wide and was about 10 yards this side of the target.

Comments

  • Sig220_Ruger77Sig220_Ruger77 Member Posts: 12,748 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Eric,

    I will chime in here and say it really depends.

    Depends on the rifle and the barrel weight a lot. I can shoot great 3-shot groups with my Ruger Ultralight all day long, but if I string it to 4 or 5 shot groups on a hot summer day I have no shot. That pencil thin barrel gets wayyyy too hot! [:0]

    You have a barrel that don't heat up real fast and I think that I agree with JustC's opinion. If the gun can put the first 3 there, then there is no reason it can't continue to do it until the barrel gets hot. In this case the shooter becomes the variable I think.

    Jon
  • zimmdenzimmden Member Posts: 237 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    To shoot 5/8" at 200 yds everything has to be perfect. Any variation of powder charge changes velocity and harmonics of barrel. Do you use wind flags ? 10 mph crosswind will move bullets almost 2 inches at 200 yds. If the last 2 shots in each group opened the group to 1.75, barrel heat could cause it. Check free float clearance when barrel is hot. As you shoot note the location of each bullet strike in order of the group 1 through 5. Is all your brass prepped identically ? All variables have to be eliminated to shoot sub 1/2 MOA.
  • awindsawinds Member Posts: 1,139 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm no expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night![:)]
    I agree with JustC.
    I only shoot 3 shot groups when working up loads.
    And only shoot with a COLD barrel.
    If 5 or 10 shot groups are needed, COLD barrel!

    In the field, first shots are with a cold barrel, they
    are the ones that count.
    Did I mention cold barrel?
    IMHO.
  • Alan RushingAlan Rushing Member Posts: 9,002 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello ECC, I hope that you'd not mind some comments from the sidelines... Believe that you've gotten good feedback.

    If that twas my rifle and my situation, (if I had not done so already, and IF I had been doing so, I'd insure that I continued to) make certain of:
    1) actual numerical sequence of the 5 shot group,
    2) insure the entire group is shot with good spacing and cool barrel,
    3) close monitoring of target wind flags,

    IF, it is shots #4 and #5 ... barrel temp would be my first variable that I would target.

    There is no reason that #4 and #5 if fliers, would be caused by any variation in the loads.

    I'd take my time and fire as many strings as needed to sort it out. Afterwards, I'd make any micro adjustments on my two sweet loads, up or down or whatever.

    Are you working on this today and this weekend? Will you give us a status report as to what you do, what you determine and where you go with it? I'd like a follow-up if you would do that! Good shooting and solving!!!

    the best, Alan
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Alan Rushing

    Hello ECC, I hope that you'd not mind some comments from the sidelines... Believe that you've gotten good feedback.

    If that twas my rifle and my situation, (if I had not done so already, and IF I had been doing so, I'd insure that I continued to) make certain of:
    1) actual numerical sequence of the 5 shot group,
    2) insure the entire group is shot with good spacing and cool barrel,
    3) close monitoring of target wind flags,

    IF, it is shots #4 and #5 ... barrel temp would be my first variable that I would target.

    There is no reason that #4 and #5 if fliers, would be caused by any variation in the loads.

    I'd take my time and fire as many strings as needed to sort it out. Afterwards, I'd make any micro adjustments on my two sweet loads, up or down or whatever.

    Are you working on this today and this weekend? Will you give us a status report as to what you do, what you determine and where you go with it? I'd like a follow-up if you would do that! Good shooting and solving!!!

    the best, Alan




    I replied to this...I'm not sure what happened to my response but I'll certainly follow up. I was going to shoot today, but it's pretty windy and kind of rainy. Can't shoot tomorrow b/c of a Patriot Guard Mission. Maybe Sunday or Monday.
  • bpostbpost Member Posts: 32,203 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lets see......under 2" at 200 yards, that is under 1 MOA, sounds pretty much OK to me for a hunting gun.
  • JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,055 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    MMMkay, well lets try this,...did you utilize Dan Newberry's "round robin" method of running your load ladder??? His method pulls more of the human error out of the target work than does the Creighton Audette method. By shooting round robin, the shooter is less likely to overthink the next shot into a tight group. It is a majority of "overthinking" the shot that destroys an otherwise great group 9 times out of 10. When yu are looking through the glass at a great group, and know you have another 1-2 bullets to put into it, your subconcious mind will destroy your cohesion with the rifle, which is why soooooo much practice goes into benchrest shooting. Probably 50 bullets are shot in practice for every 1 that is shot on a match target.

    You also need to try those 2 loads again on another day under different or even similar conditions.

    How far apart are the charges on those two different loads??? If they are close, then one of them is NOT the load, and will sho you that on the next range trip. I run the ladder round robin, determine which loads need another look, and then only test those on the next range trip.

    also, another tip is to put the target at 300yds or more for the final testing, so that you can't see the bullet holes, and your subconscious mind doesn't have the same effect as it does whn you can actually see your tight group.

    Let me know about the difference in the two charges, you may have found the lower and higher end harmonics.

    If your pills are VLDs, I can tell you I have a 6.5x55AI that doesn't even settle down until 400yds. Up to that point it seems unsatisfactory. Proof below

    100_0981.jpg
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by bpost
    Lets see......under 2" at 200 yards, that is under 1 MOA, sounds pretty much OK to me for a hunting gun.



    Not for a long range hunting rig built by John Myer, who built the last 1000 yard world record setting rig.


    I won't even keep a rifle that won't shoot better than that...unless it's something like my 45/70 with a 16" barrel and open sights.[:D]
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    JustC...I think I have found the low and the high end of the barrel harmonics. I have a 3/8" group at just over 3000 fps and one group at 1/2" and one a 5/8" at 3150-3175 fps.

    I plan to load up both loads and hit the range again. I have a total of 3 groups with 3 rounds under 5/8" at 200 yards. I don't have a place to stretch things out, out here...which is a major bummer. I really miss having my 500 yard range 50 yards from my back door, back east.[:(] I miss my 1000 yard range on the other side of the property even more. I haven't done much shooting since moving out here b/c of the lack of a long range nearby.
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