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Reloading "458 3.25 in."
rhope
Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
Seems like I finally found the right forum.
I first posted this on the "Ask the Experts" forum. When I got no replies there I tried the "General Discussion" forum. The replies I got there pointed me hear.
Thank you to the people on the "General Disscussion" forum who directed me to this forum and to the one person who did give me some usefull information on "Ask the Experts".
I am repeating my original post here with the hope that some of you may have some more information or comments.
My original post was as follows:
I have a Ruger #1 in "458 3.25 in.". I assume this gun started out as a 45/70 and later had the chamber lengthend to 3.25 inches (or a modern 45/120 Sharps if you prefer).
I have been told that I can reload using 458 Lott data but I would like to hear what the experts have to say about this.
I have been using 50.0 grs. H322 with a 300 gr. Hornady for a "plinking" load. Seems to be accurate and not too uncomfortable to shoot.
I have also used 55.0 grs. IMR 3031 with the Hornady 500 gr. Anything much less than 55.0 grs. results in some very unpleasant hangfires.
I have seen some 458 Lott data using from 72 to 77 grs. of IMR 3031 with 500 gr. Hornadys. What do you think about this ?
Evan if it is safe I don't expect to shoot a lot of these kind of loads (when I was much younger I felt that the harder a gun kicked the better it was - now that I am much older I no longer enjoy getting kicked around so much) but I would like to try a few full power loads just to see what they are like.
Any information or comments would be greatly appreciated.
I first posted this on the "Ask the Experts" forum. When I got no replies there I tried the "General Discussion" forum. The replies I got there pointed me hear.
Thank you to the people on the "General Disscussion" forum who directed me to this forum and to the one person who did give me some usefull information on "Ask the Experts".
I am repeating my original post here with the hope that some of you may have some more information or comments.
My original post was as follows:
I have a Ruger #1 in "458 3.25 in.". I assume this gun started out as a 45/70 and later had the chamber lengthend to 3.25 inches (or a modern 45/120 Sharps if you prefer).
I have been told that I can reload using 458 Lott data but I would like to hear what the experts have to say about this.
I have been using 50.0 grs. H322 with a 300 gr. Hornady for a "plinking" load. Seems to be accurate and not too uncomfortable to shoot.
I have also used 55.0 grs. IMR 3031 with the Hornady 500 gr. Anything much less than 55.0 grs. results in some very unpleasant hangfires.
I have seen some 458 Lott data using from 72 to 77 grs. of IMR 3031 with 500 gr. Hornadys. What do you think about this ?
Evan if it is safe I don't expect to shoot a lot of these kind of loads (when I was much younger I felt that the harder a gun kicked the better it was - now that I am much older I no longer enjoy getting kicked around so much) but I would like to try a few full power loads just to see what they are like.
Any information or comments would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
Just a question.
Although I use 45/120 brass the gun is a Ruger #1 which I understand is a very strong action which should handle reasonably heavy smokeless loads with jackeded bullets. This is what I was looking for data on.
That being said I also shoot an original 45/70 trapdoor Springfield so I have some 45 calibre moulds. So if somebody has sugestions for blackpowder loads in the Ruger #1 I just might give it a try.
Robert
Based on what I read, I wouldn't try to go too high because of possible case failure.
And also possibly been fired with blackpowder and/or corrosive primers ?
I am using modern Norma 45/120 cases.
I think maximum pressure on 458 Lott is about 56,000 C.U.P.
Your rifle, and your body. If it was mine I wouldn't go too far. If I wanted more, I would trade the rifle for the correct caliber.
I have found some data on the internet for 458 Express and 458 Lott. As I mentioned in the original post, the heaviest load I had tried was 55.0 grs. IMR 3031 with a 500 gr. Hornady bullet. The 458 Express/458 Lott data goes way beyond this, indicating I MIGHT also be able to go well beyond this.
Since I would be venturing into unknown territory I thought it was time to get a chronograph so that I would have some way to track the effect of heavier loads. I started by firing a 2 shot "string" (this is not a gun I want to shoot long strings off the bench) with the above load. Average velocity 1331 fps. Barely into the 45/70 range! Obviously I had a lot of room to go up! I loaded 2 rounds with 58.0 grs. and got 1808 fps. Whoa! Almost 500 fps more from an extra 3 grs. of powder ?
After giving this some thought I came up with a possible answer. I learned many years ago that when using light smokeless loads in big cases it was neccessary to tip the gun up to position the powder consistantly against the primer. Otherwise there would be considerable vertical stringing on the target - indicating significant variations in velocity. In the exitement of trying out my new chronograph I probably forgot to do this. I went back to the 55 gr. loads and fired another 2 shot string, being carefull to position the powder before firing. Average velocity 1598 fps. Almost 300 fps more with the same powder charge!
I have since moved up to 64.0 grs. (in 2.0 gr. increments). Average velocity 1952 fps. (i.e. edging into 458 Winchester Magnum territory).
So far no indications of high pressure. Very little flattening of primers, very easy extraction. So I think I can go some higher yet.
As always, any comments, suggestions or opinions would be very welcome.
P.S. Another lesson learned. I have a Browning shooting vest with a padded shoulder and a pocket for an additional gel pad as well. When testing the 60.0 gr. load I forgot to put the vest on before firing the first shot. OUCH!!
This has raised some questions to which I hope some of you may have answers (or at least theories).
Increasing the powder charge from 55.0 to 68.0 grs. resulted in a velocity increase from 1598 fps to 2021 fps. If my math is right this means an increase of approximately 23% in the powder charge resulted in an increase of approximately 26% in velocity.
However, increasing the powder charge from 68.0 to 77.0 (approximately 13%) resulted in a velocity increase from 2021 fps to only 2175 fps (approximately 7%).
Does anyone have an explanation? I understand that when loading blackpowder that there is a limit to the amount of powder that can be burned effectively in a given barrel (i.e. not all of the powder is consumed within the barrel and therefore does not contribute to accelerating the bullet). Can this occur with heavy loads of smokeless powders?
I also noticed that for a given powder charge I was getting lower velocities (typically 50-75 fps less) than listed in my Fourth Edition Hornady manual for the 458 Winchester Magnum with the same bullet. I assume this is due to my 22" barrel instead of the 25" barrel used by Hornady. Perhaps also due to the larger case capacity of the 45/120 case leaving more air space above the powder charge.
Also noticed just a very slight stickiness on extraction with the 76 and 77 gr. loads. Think I will back off to 75 gr. which will still give me approximately the same velocity as maximum 458 Winchester loads. Have now run out of 500 gr. bullets so will have to get some more and do a little more testing.
I have tried Cream of Wheat filler for 40 2 ?" Rem. loads but always worried about handling causing the powder and filler to get mixed together. Since these were cast bullet loads I have now switched to Trail Boss which seems to work well and because of it's bulk does not require any filler.
If I use Cream of Wheat in the 458 should I fill the case level full and then compress it when I seat the bullet ? Will filling the air space with Cream of Wheat (or any other filler) cause higher pressure with a given powder charge ?
SCorvers: I have been working with IMR 3031 because I had some on hand and because my Hornady manual lists it as one of the powders which give the highest velocities with the Hornady 500 gr. RN in the 458 Winchester Magnum. Can you suggest other powders which might work better in my 22" barreled 458 3.25" ?
I know in Lees reloading manual they talk about sufficient case filling for powders to perform properly and Keith spoke of reloading with volume versus weight.
Can you post a pic of that gun and round? That sounds like an awesome pig buster.
Ha ha!!! I ain't that knowledgeable about powders to do that. I sent you an e-mail to a reloading site where there are folks WAY more smarter than me about the subject.
I know in Lees reloading manual they talk about sufficient case filling for powders to perform properly and Keith spoke of reloading with volume versus weight.
Can you post a pic of that gun and round? That sounds like an awesome pig buster.
Check this out http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=25842&PN=1
I have never tried posting a picture but I will try to figure out how to do it.
MIKE WISKEY: Thanks for the information on using fillers; when I get some more bullets I will give it a try.
SCorvers: Here is the picture you asked for. Took me a while to figure out how to do it.
From left to right the 3 rounds are Hornady 300 gr. HP in Bell 45 Basic brass, Hornady 350 gr. FP in Norma 45/120 brass and Hornady 500 gr. RN in Norma 45/120 brass.
My experiments with the 500 gr. Hornadys are now on hold. Used all I had. Went to my local dealer for more. They are on backorder.
Found some 45/120 data on the net for 350, 405, and 500 gr. cast bullets using Trail Boss.
The suggested loads for 405 gr. bullets were 26 to 30 grs.
Loaded some 405 gr. cast with a Lee 459-405-HB mould and sized to .458 in a Lyman lube-sizer using 26 grs. Trail Boss.
A 5 shot group at 45 yds. was just over 1". Average velocity for 5 shots = 1360 fps. ES = 20 fps.
I will try increasing the powder charge and see if that is better or worse.
I also have a Lee 340 gr. 457-340-F mould and an original Winchester 300 gr. 45/90 mould.
If anyone has data for any of these bullet weights in a 45/120 (especially for Trail Boss) I would appreciate if you could pass it on to me.
As always, any other info or comments you might have would be welcome.
Even though it is the same weight, because it is a different bullet (and has a "copper clad STEEL" jacket), I dropped the load from 77 down to 72 gr. of IMR 3031 and loaded 2 rounds.
The first shot over the chronograph gave me 1836 fps (compared to an average of 2089 for the same powder charge with the 500 gr. RN). Then I realized that I had not positioned the powder against the primer before firing. The second round (after tipping the rifle up to position the powder) gave me 2013. In spite of the velocity difference the 2 shots cut together at 50 yards.
Then I loaded 2 more with the same powder charge but with a Lee 1.9 cc dipper of Instant Cream of Wheat (about 15 grs.) on top of the powder to fill the case to about 1/8" above where the base of the bullet would be when seated (so that the load would be slightly compressed, to keep the powder in place, when the bullet was seated).
These 2 rounds gave me an average of 1920 fps and what I perceived as more recoil. The 2 shots were about 1 _" apart on the 50 yard target (that may have been due to my flinch). Extraction remained easy.
At this point I called Hornady Customer Service. I was told that the steel jacket does in fact increase pressures and it was suggested I should use about 2 grs. less powder than I would with the 500 gr. RN bullets.
As far as a filler, the suggestion was to go to a flower shop and get some "green floral foam" which I should cut into ? " thicknesses which I could then use as wads by simply pressing it down over the case mouth to cut the wad.
Have any of you tried this "floral foam" and if so how did it work ?
As always any other comments or suggestions are always welcome and appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert
Not to send you off to a different forum, but between the "Big Bore", "Reloading", Wildcat" and "Black Powder" sections of the Accurate Reloading forums ( http://forums.accuratereloading.com or start at www.accuratereloading.com and go in from there)you should be able to find several guys that have experance with this round.