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1851 Navy Reprod.
realtree2
Member Posts: 8 ✭✭
I have been competition shooting with black powder for many years now and I bought my 1851 revolver from Cabela's a few years ago. After the first few times of shooting it I realized that it is not very powerful at all. I actually had a ball that failed to penetrate both sides of an empty cardboard box. I am usind ~23-25gr of Elephant FFFg with a .451 round ball. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
That said, that must have been one h*** of a tough cardboard box!
I can't tell you the energy and velocity, but it's underpowered for hunting anything but small game. Now imagine if you'd gotten it in .36! Both calibers were favored for social transactions in the 19th century, though we'd consider either marginal at best for self-defense.
While you are busy showing your obvious disdain for black powder weapons, your bias blinds you to the fact that they were originally used in quantity as military weapons and were made in fact with the military contracts in mind.
I suppose also that the hundreds or thousands killed by these weapons would agree with you that they were killed with weapons that were "marginal at best" for self defense or offensive use? Or maybe just the maimed ones would agree.
With that sort of logic in mind I'm sure you wouldn't mind standing at the 25 yd line for us while we simply bounce our little pellets off you? After all, these colt weapons are nothing but toys right?
Combat users reported filling the cylinders from the barrel, filling them to the top and cramming a ball into the full cylinders.
Gee that must have been about 60 grains wouldn't you say?
I suppose all the reports about the wild west and the gunslingers are mere myths since the guns they used were only smoke puff bb guns to you and were "marginal at best"?
realtree,
these guns will shoot as straight and true as any of the high velocity techie toys made today. If you get the snap on one of these oofty goofty "I'm so cool with my super dooper trooper pooper" ... he's just another dead chimp. That includes home invaders.
30 gr in a 44 or 22 in a 36 will kill a man just as quick and as effectively. They are nothing to be observed and be considered passively. A soft lead ball in a 44 will pancake to nearly silver dollar size when it hits bone. There are plenty of modern reports by people who claim taking down deer with a 44. Colt type. (I don't how they get close enough)
You can also over load these guns and they will appear to give magnum velocities. Granted, I do not know how long they will last when used that way, but they were tested/proofed at the colt factory at 60 gr. Modern steel that the repro's are made from is undoubtedly better steel.
Don't listen to the folks who think these guns are useless toys.
Let me add: They protected a nation and upheld the law.
You've misinterpreted my posts about C&B revolvers.
"Obvious disdain"? I love the smelly things!
I own a number of BP pistols and revolvers (my first handgun was a Replica Arms 1860 Colt), as well as repro muzzleloading rifles, muskets and fowling pieces in both flintlock and percussion.
Of course, BP muskets and handguns were used as military weapons. For about the first 300 years of firearm use, the only practical propellant for firearms was the mixture of potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur we call black powder.
The fact that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed by black powder muzzleloaders is unrelated to the fact that most original cap-and-ball revolvers (with the possible exception of the Dragoon and Walker Colts) are underpowered for HUNTING any big game, or the fact that modern self defense experts consider them underpowered for combat. A .44 1860 Army - like my first revolver - propels a round ball weighing about 124 grains (plus or minus) at about 800 feet per second. Using a conical bullet raises the projectile weight, but reduces the powder charge. These loadings approximate the .38 special cartridge in power, not exactly a magnum (yes, I know the greater diameter bullet does offer greater stopping power than the .38 spl.). The .36 Navy is less powerful, and the soft lead balls and conical bullets loaded in these guns often (in my experience) lack penetration compared to a modern bullet. Few ethical hunters would try taking big game with a .38 Special due to the possibility of a mortally wounded animal still able to escape and die later.
I can't quite understand the reference to "filling the cylinders from the barrel...to the top and cramming a ball into the full cylinders", so I can't frame a response, other than to say that other than the Walker Colt, I haven't seen any C&B revolvers that would accept 60 grains in the chamber with a ball rammed on top and still work as a repeater.
As to the comment about their effectiveness, they worked, they were reliable and powerful enough for the time, but when more powerful, more efficient weapons were introduced, it didn't take long for their general adoption.
Funny, I don't recall any reference (in any of my posts anywhere) to "smoke puff bb guns" or "useless toys".
Locally (before there was a muzzleloading hunting season in PA), I educated quite a few people about the lethality of BP weapons.
For at least the first cylinder load I would feel adequately armed in a social encounter. Reloading is another matter (yes, I know you can carry loaded extra cylinders, but their use requires disassembling your revolver under fire).
Re-reading my posts in this thread, I fail to understand the vehemence of your attack. My comment on an anemic load was a reference to IP's load of 23-25 grains in a .44. I'd still like to see the bullet-resistant cardboard box mentioned in the Initial Post.
I'll decline your kind offer to stand at 25 yards while you shoot at me with your C&B revolver...unless I get to use my Uberti 1860 Colt repro loaded with a .451 round ball and 28 grains of powder in each of its six chambers.
just got a litte excited.
There are so many people around who seem to denigrate these bp guns as if they are things of noconsequence. I don't know why they would even bother to bug anyone about them. Much less play around with one.
I keep a nice 5.7 as well. But my favorites by far are these colt and remington repros. I have a few conversions as well.
The comment about filling the cylinders through the barrel comes from a text that written by an older gent that was a kid during that period following the civil war. It only makes sense to me in terms of the idea of being under stress in combat and needing to load in one big hurry. I wouldn't particularly recommend it either. But I suppose you could get it reloaded under a minute that way.
Here's the text:
"How the colt navy .36 revolver was gunsmithed and fired in the field during the civil war", D.L.Rhea. The book of course also talks about the 1860 model. You might already have it, I don't know. The book also talks about having contests with targets out to 200 yards. Though we might consider that to be specious, it isn't an impossibility. Any way its really interesting. I think I found it relatively cheap. In that book you'll find the comment about 60 grains for proofing from the factory as well as the sights being set at 75 yards. These were meant to be some serious guns with many uses I certainly wouldn't have thought of.
Probably because I am ex military, I consider the first shot to be the important one. Hi tech weapons can indeed lay down a base of fire rapidly even from a pistol. but what counts is whose round hits the target first.
It may be impressive that a modern round can penetrate a skull and fly out the back and hit yet another target but I would suggest that the initial penetration of skull material negates the emotional entertainment value of that rumination and fact. It is all that is necessary.
So I guess I was sensing what I thought was another sideways slam about these guns. I have kept bp guns for home defense for quite awhile. I remember some GB jackaxx posting a picture of some hi tech piece of junk trying to make a joke out of it. I figure one 36 in his forehead and his ego trip would be over. He could drop his flying saucer gun to the floor.
That sort of stuff, those types of responses when trying to get a dialog off the ground about bp, was one reason I wrote admin to ask if they would start a message board for us. I'm glad they did.
I haven't read lots of your posts. I figured you were another one of those smug mud headded know it alls that were going to start telling us that we are playing with toys. I have only seem to have encountered these guys in GB.
So ok I'm sorry. I'm not really all that excited about it. I just had to respond to that comment which you finally made more clear about what you meant.
cool?
I figure we could use a minor peeing contest now and then to spur some discussion...
hehehe
I can identify with 200 yard shooting with these weapons since they tend to shoot a bit HIGH when the range is closer to what we consider reasonable.
I still don't comprehend the reference to loading through the barrel. The author's definition of "barrel" may be different than we comprehend. I can understand pouring the powder down the barrel from a flask would be a bit easier than pouring it directly into the cylinder mouth, but they had combustible cartridges for relatively quick, convenient loading.
The 60 grain load with a ball on top would extend into the barrel (at least it would in my 1860 and 1851 revolvers). It would have to be capped first (not a practice I recommend, but possibly one used for proofing the gun), then powder and ball loaded through the barrel into the capped chamber. Just supposition here. The fact that the author of the text was a boy during the period discussed indicates he probably got his information 2nd hand, and may have misunderstood what he was told. Just a possibility, judging from what I've read and experienced with these revolvers. I would be interested in reading the text you cite if you would be kind enough to let me know the title and author.
I'm a former Marine ('70 to '74), so I agree wholeheartedly re: make the first shot count, you may not get a second. On that point I believe we are in complete agreement.
...my favorites by far are these colt and remington repros. I have a few conversions as well.
"How the colt navy .36 revolver was gunsmithed and fired in the field during the civil war", D.L.Rhea.at 75 yards. These were meant to be some serious guns with many uses I certainly wouldn't have thought of.
cool?
Well, rereading your post, I see you've already cited title and author. Thank you. I'll find a copy to buy or borrow.
You have a couple of conversions? I am so jealous! The cartridge conversions and earliest cartridge revolvers are an interest of mine, especially the Colt 1871-72 Open Top .44.
Cool.
I think I just read that the old guy said something about 36 navys being sighted in at 125 FEET not 75 yards. The other refers to the 60's I think.
Its a small book but I don't have the time at the moment for another careful read. I found mine on fleabay. Amazon might be the best bet. You'll like it.
If you can't find one at all, I'll temp loan you mine. Just please don'take me come looking for it. Or actually its got 76 pages. I might be able to copy it and send you the paper. LMK but you'd be better off with the book. There are only 1000 copies. I didn;t realize it was a limited edition.
take care
Let me give you some better data:
How The Colt Navy .36 Revolver Was Gunsmithed And Fired In The Field During The Civil War, D.L. Rhea, Emons Printing Company, 536 E Broadway, Alton IL, copywrite 1985 No IBSN. The author also wrote The Dragon's Palace about combat on Oki. I spent 22 years in the usmc. retired in 95.
Be happy that a lot of people look down on our beloved revolvers as nothing more than "toys". When they learn how much we love them and that they are as good as they are, the liberials WILL regulate them to death.
We know what they, just don't let them know.[:D]
Lee
Amsptcds, I did searches on fleabay and the internet for the book. No luck yet. I'm patient. I'll keep looking, and one of my BP-shooting buddies may have a copy to lend me.
I found ONE at Alibris. They want 65.00 YOW!
Contact me by regular email and I'll take it to the office supply place and copy it. It should be about a nickel a page at around 35 pages. If you pay for that and postage, at least you'll have the text. No problem, I just won't be able to jump and run to get it, but I'll do it.
take care
Keith grew up in Helena Montana. He was born in 1898. There was a large number of Civil War veterans in Helena, and Keith spoke to them whenever he could about the guns they used. The calvary veterans had a great deal of combat experience with cap and ball revolvers. They told Keith that they preferred the round ball to the elongated slug. Besides the fact that they could load more powder with the round ball, the round ball seemed to hit harder. These Civil War veterans told Keith that a single shot with the round ball, even from the .36, would knock an enemy trooper out of the saddle, and out of the fight.
Helena was a wild west town even at the turn of the century, and there were still gunbattles in the streets. Many of these Civil War veterans still carried cap and ball pistols for self defense, instead of the cartridge guns which were readily available. They felt that the round ball from the cap and ball pistol was superior in a gunfight.
Keith bought a Colt Navy in .36 at the age of 14, and began carrying it as his self defense pistol.
It is documented that Wild Bill Hickock killed a man in a shootout in the streets at a range of 75 yards. Hickock dropped the man with a single shot from his Colt .36
amsptcds, I too use cap and ball revolvers for home defense. Like you say, all that is needed is a single accurate shot. From reading the historical record of these old guns, I am confident that a single shot from a cap and ball revolver will do the job.
I read somewhere, but can't remember where that Hickock unlaoded and reloaded his weapons every night. I don't know if its true. I sort of understand that he was paranoid for good reason, and probably wanted to be sure everything was right every day.
But for the sake of the original post, since we've highjacked this so far from the topic...
I usually use 22 grains for the .36's and 30 for the .44's. I seem to get the most consistent performance that way.
I found ONE at Alibris. They want 65.00 YOW!
Contact me by regular email and I'll take it to the office supply place and copy it. It should be about a nickel a page at around 35 pages. If you pay for that and postage, at least you'll have the text. No problem, I just won't be able to jump and run to get it, but I'll do it.
take care
$65 for a 35 page book? As you so aptly put it, YOW.
I'll take you up on that offer of a xeroxed copy of the text, when you get around to it (no rush, I'm at least a couple of months behind in my reading). Please email me how much you want for the copy + shipping, and where to send the money order. It sounds like an interesting read.
quote:Originally posted by amsptcds
I found ONE at Alibris. They want 65.00 YOW!
Contact me by regular email and I'll take it to the office supply place and copy it. It should be about a nickel a page at around 35 pages. If you pay for that and postage, at least you'll have the text. No problem, I just won't be able to jump and run to get it, but I'll do it.
take care
$65 for a 35 page book? As you so aptly put it, YOW.
I'll take you up on that offer of a xeroxed copy of the text, when you get around to it (no rush, I'm at least a couple of months behind in my reading). Please email me how much you want for the copy + shipping, and where to send the money order. It sounds like an interesting read.
Its 76 pages. It'll end up approximately 35-38 pages.
I'll probably get to it next week. Hope that works for you.
Would you be kind enough to make me a copy of that book while you are at it? I will be glad to pay for the costs.
amsptcds:
Would you be kind enough to make me a copy of that book while you are at it? I will be glad to pay for the costs.
would it be worth a pound of Swiss fffg to ya?
I understand the post office has no sense of humor about mailing BP, and it tends to leak out of the envelope!
Certainly the equivalent in cash.
I understand the post office has no sense of humor about mailing BP, and it tends to leak out of the envelope!
Just dye it white. They'll really love ya then! [:D]
Certainly the equivalent in cash.
I understand the post office has no sense of humor about mailing BP, and it tends to leak out of the envelope!
I didn't mean you. we already have our deal. Did you read the email I sent you?
If you don't want to help me out, suit yourself. The world will keep on turning, even if I don't get a photocopy of your book.
I have told you what it is worth.
If you don't want to help me out, suit yourself. The world will keep on turning, even if I don't get a photocopy of your book.
what?
what kinda response is that?
How much is it worth?
That part was kinda unclear.
"I will be glad to pay for the costs."
If there are 35 pages, and it costs 10 cents a page to photocopy, your costs on the photocopier are $3.50.
If the envelope costs $1.00, and the postage costs $2.00, your shipping costs are $3.00
Listen, Bud, I got tired of playing the kinds of games you want to play in tenth grade. Please keep your book, whatever you are dishing out, I don't need it.
What I said was clear:
"I will be glad to pay for the costs."
If there are 35 pages, and it costs 10 cents a page to photocopy, your costs on the photocopier are $3.50.
If the envelope costs $1.00, and the postage costs $2.00, your shipping costs are $3.00
Listen, Bud, I got tired of playing the kinds of games you want to play in tenth grade. Please keep your book, whatever you are dishing out, I don't need it.
well allen, that's what you get for buttin in.
I don't appreciate you trying to bully your way in.
I simply asked if a pound of swiss would be worth it, and you go off on this childish thing of yours.
It was a legitimate question.
A simple no would have been fine.
It isn't me who is playing games here. I have no idea why you assume that I am like you.
You asked, I responded, then you reply with some irrelevant stuff and insult. I ask you to make it a little more clear and I get more insult and some weird sort of irrelevant accusation.
I am not trained to tell you what's wrong with you. I don't know what you're thinking. So the answer is no. I certainly wouldn't do that for someone who tries to bully me into it. Maybe some professional help is what you need.
besides you give up so easy that it doesn't seem to me that the book, not my book by the way, I didn't write it, would benefit you in any way. It can't impart maturity or politeness.
Cimarron is making a new conversion this year. Its the Richards Transition model. It has the 1860 barrel and the short ejector assembly.
I have one of their 1860 44 conversion models. It has the opentop barrel on it.
The kits from R&D are not hard to add to an existing frame. If you pick up the mounting guide and use it, they will buy it back if you decide not to keep it.
I converted one of my 51's and will convert a 61 after awhile. If you have any machine abilities, you can get parts for cimarrons from VTI and Cimarron and convert your own weapon, but it'll take a lot of cutting on the recoil shield to fit the breech.
I just read somewhere that the 60 frame is the same as the 51 frame. So it gets a little puzzling as to why the companies that make conversions claim they won't make one for a 44 cal 51 type. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
By the way, all the conversion kits for 44 are presently only 5 shot, with the exception of a few drop in models, but Cimarron's guns are six shot making the manufactured ones a better deal IMO since they are more "authentic".
Here's a link to their site:
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/OpenTop-Conversions.htm
is anything working out better for you with that bp revolver. Since you have shot competitively, I suppose you already understand that if you use 777 you need to use a little less right?
I have used 30gr 777 in my 60. 40 and 45 in my dragoons and 22 in my 51s and 61's. It only seems like a waste when I use 45 in the dragoons as that's the only time I get too much flash burn out the sides.
You give yourself away right there, Bud. I "gave up" on the childish games you want to play.
I made a simple and polite request. If you didn't want to copy the book for me, you could have just said "no", or you could have ignored my request. Instead you started playing games.
Listen, I understand that the high school kids hang out on MySpace.
Why don't you go over there, your sensibility will be a big hit with the other tenth graders.
you're one of those trolls.
I didn't mean you. we already have our deal. Did you read the email I sent you?
I didn't see an email from you. There may be something wrong with my server, or maybe the nut on my keyboard is malfunctioning again.
quote:Originally posted by amsptcds
I didn't mean you. we already have our deal. Did you read the email I sent you?
I didn't see an email from you. There may be something wrong with my server, or maybe the nut on my keyboard is malfunctioning again.
I replied to your emails at your @earthlink addy
amsptcds, I have never used 777 before and know nothing about it. Until recently all I have ever used is Elephant FF and FFF. About 2 years ago I discovered Clean Shot and have been using in my .50 cal Hawkin it ever since. I still use the Elephant in the revolver. As for the shooting, Using about 28 grains seemed to greatly increase the power of the gun. However after the 6th shot the gun was being shaken apart. I think I need a new barrel wedge.
FYI - the group I shoot with is the Grand Valley Cap 'n' Ballers if anyone wants to look them up
First of all thanks for the laughs. I got quite the chuckle from the gripe-fest in here. I would appreciate it if the buying and selling conversations were taken elsewhere. I started this post to learn new things about my revolver, not who wrote what book and where people can get it.
amsptcds, I have never used 777 before and know nothing about it. Until recently all I have ever used is Elephant FF and FFF. About 2 years ago I discovered Clean Shot and have been using in my .50 cal Hawkin it ever since. I still use the Elephant in the revolver. As for the shooting, Using about 28 grains seemed to greatly increase the power of the gun. However after the 6th shot the gun was being shaken apart. I think I need a new barrel wedge.
FYI - the group I shoot with is the Grand Valley Cap 'n' Ballers if anyone wants to look them up
But its a fairly new gun right? Probably you only need to "pound" it in a little more. Sometimes I use the handle of my medium sized screwdriver to smack it in a little.
I generally only have problems with the wedges on my dragoons. But they are 70s and 80 models. But I also use 45 and 50 grains in them. Quite a pop.
The rule with 777 is to use a little less as it has the ability to produce 15% more mv and associative pressures for equal sized loads. Does that mean to decrease 15% in volume? I'm not sure.
But the 22 and 30 gr loads I spoke about, I have used with 777 lately with no overspray from unburnt powder. Both gun types shoot consistently at 25 yards. I need to get some real bp to do a little shooting with.
hey.. sorry about high jacking the thread. I'll try to watch it. It can be easy to get off topic sometimes.
I have NOT received any undeliverable messages, so we can both be sure they went through to you.
email unlike snail mail, doesn't get "lost". It just gets misfiled at destination.
Your other option would be to have the part made to fit. A barrel wedge isn't exactly a difficult piece to make (speaking from the point-of-view of a blacksmith who happens to be me).
Since I use 2F 777 in my cartridge loads, that's what I tried in the 51's. I know, I know...supposed to use 3F. I tested various loads from 20gr to 30gr, and found that 25gr of the 777 was awesome! Very accurate and didn't shake the gun apart.
For parts and pieces you might try VTI gun parts. They took over all the parts and such for Uberti, and a few others.