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powerbelts in omega?

bigge8882bigge8882 Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
Has anyone tried powerbelts in omega? if so how many grains? they are advertised as easy to load and flatter trajectory but they are costly from wally world at $13/12

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    anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've just tried a few ... seem to be OK, but I have not really worked up a loading as I should.
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    allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,329 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    They will certainly not have a better trajectory. The Powerbelts are .50 caliber, full bore size, while the saboted slugs are .45 caliber. Smaller caliber equals better trajectory.
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    ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't waste your money on powerbelts.

    If you want great terminal performance and the optimal ballistics try the following load.

    a 250 grain shockwave loaded on top of 110 to 130 grains of 777, primer is your choice.

    Ballistics are great and the bullet will really perform as well.

    Hank
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    longbow589longbow589 Member Posts: 60 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I too like the sabot 50/45. Faster in flight and less wind deflection. But I add a steel BB to the tip of my pistol bullits. Holow point bullets are not made to penetrate hair and hides. The steel BB helps keep the hollow point clear until in passes thru the hair and hide and perform much better on game. Apply a small drop of super glue to the cavity and drop in a BB all done.
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    oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To each his own. I love power belts in my inline. I use two Pyrodex pellets with them. I know, you might say "inefficient," but if you're using anything besides an old Hawken or mountain rifle, you're not too keen on perfection in the first place..[;)]
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    He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,055 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am with old gunner, I shoot powerbelts in my Black Diamond and thing they are just fine. The Hawken takes round balls and that suits me too.
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    caplockcaplock Member Posts: 6 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I SHOOT A LOT OF MUZZLELOADERS FOR CUSTOMERS AT MY GUNSHOP,POWER BELTS HAVE CAUSED MISFIRES FOR SOME WHEN THEY HAVE SLID OFF POWDER CHARGE AFTER A DAY OR TWO AFTER LOADING.THEY DON'T SHOOT AS FLAT AS THE SABOTS.THE MOST ACCURATE BULLETS IN GENERAL I SEE ARE PRECISION RIFLE AND PARKERS WITH GRANULATED 777
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    oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Never had your problem, Cap.. Been using power belts for years.Not one misfire. I believe the misfire problem is more likely to be a dirty nipple or bad primer. If you set off the powder charge, something gonna blow, don't see what the power belt has to do with it. Now if it slips off the charge and causes an accuracy problem, that might be a different story, but a misfire means it didn't shoot...You confused me. Either way, mine have always been super good.
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    Guns & GlassGuns & Glass Member Posts: 864 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Power belts generaly aren't the issue, nor does usage of a sabot, and pellets mean better terminal energy, and ballistics.

    Stop reading and believing what these manufacturers are writing and use common sense and SCIENCE. Too many companies are trying to sell what they have, and not what works the best.

    If the bullet is tight & seated properly they aren't moving unless the rifle is being used as a walking stick.

    Well, truth be told they can move in inlines w/209 primers as the 209 is too powerful, and when ignited....can bump the Power Belt....even a sabot before the pellets are burning fast enough to propel the bullet down the bore.

    Now for those who 'prime' the pellets especially 777 by dumping some loose powder like FFFF before loading the pellets, the primer powder doesn't lay flat. So when it ignites it burns (flame propigation is the scientific word) on an angle, which ignites the bottom pellet on an angle, which has the effect of a lopsided 'gas push' on the charge.
    Ever wonder why flyers occur without any pattern? That's one reason!

    Loads must be worked up for each rifle....no different than center fire cartridges, with all things being done the same, and only one thing....one thing changed at a time.

    In lines vs. flint locks have different operating criteria, and performance values, and not everything can be used between them with the same results.

    Have had a few occasions to chat w/TC, and Hodgen about some issues, and have learned that some Tech people at these factories simply sing the company song from a pre written song book.

    Personal example, for ease of operation, and rough weather hunting I bought a TC Firestorm SS which was designed for pellets w/a special cone point breech plug that positions the bottom of the bottom pellet in line w/the touch hole.

    Many misfires, poor pellet ignition, and poor accuracy w/RS Select or 777. After talking to the factories, they all pointed the finger at Power Belt, I decided to listen, and test their suggestions. Having a scietific backround, and liking to shoot it was just what I was looking to do.

    Did the suggested priming. Poor accuracy, a little better pellet ignition, but still misfires.

    One problem is the TC frizzen isn't hardened enough, and after a while will throw fewer sparks. Solution was to R&R w/a Lyman frizzen. Needs to be file fitted, but lots of sparks now.

    Did suggested pan tilt, but that only makes the powder like a fuse.
    Cut pan powder to 1/4-1/3, and did out board tilt. Better now, and no long lock time.

    Reconfigured the touch hole back side like a rocket nozzle venturi. Better pellet burn, but only a little better accuracy.

    In using 777, a crud ring was developing in the barrel. NO ONE at either factory ever heard of that. It's now common knowledge, as only a few writers will even mention it. They want to keep the $$$, guns, test, and hunts flowing. It can't be ignored, and has caused some hangfires, squib loads, and doubles. Hogden said it must be the Powder Belt. BULL CRAP. Bruce Townsley just wrote an article on it, and Dave Ehrig has predicted it would happen.

    Stopped shooting pellets, and loaded some Swiss black powder....she go "boom" every time, and groups are getting better. Now experimenting w/new Platinum Powder Belts, and differnt eight Maxi's to dial in the best components.

    Spoke to the president of Power Belt, who laughed when he heard the excuses. Sid he hears them more and more as his bullet sales grow. Interesting.

    Looking forward to talking w/these factories at the Shot Show.
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    ahanksterahankster Member Posts: 253 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    PB sales grow and grow for several reasons. First is that many people are lazy and go for the first, easiest thing they find. Second is the advertising, some of it not very honest, that is spent and lastly is people not being willing to try for something new and better.

    Where did the "Pellets give better performance and ballistics" come from? Not only do pellets cost four or five times more than loose powder per shot, It is common knowledge that loose powder gives a much more consistant load, consistant burn and is far superior accuracy wise under general application. And, while loose subs is better than pellets, loose "real" black powder is best of all. I agree that in many rifles and for many people, they may not be able to tell the difference, but loose is by far superior when it comes to shooting. Pellets tend to not be very uniform in weight (try and weigh some on a scale and check the deviation), and they tend to be crushed by varying degrees when the bullet is seated causing different burn rates and patterns from shot to shot (these inconsistancies in the amount of crushing and/or compression is a real killer for fine accuracy). For hunting purposes, they are generally ok, but for a person trying to get the most out of their firearm, or are looking for good accuracy out to 200 yards, loose powder, whether it is true black or a sub, is the best way to go. But, then you have to have all those lubes and goop. Oh yea, if I get home late after a hunt and skinning a deer, than decide to have a beer and go to bed rather than cleaning my gun that night, it is ok w/ 777 in my stainless Encore. I could even wait two days. Try that trick w/ a smoke pole and real black powder. Try and get rid of that crud ring.

    As far as the crud ring that 777 sometimes causes. Yes, it does happen in some guns. Usually because of magnum, 110 grains or more, loads and hot primers. The simple soloution is to CLEAN YOUR GUN. Most guns tend to get better about it as the gun is shot more. Also, what is the big deal? All a person needs to do is swab out the barrel and it goes away, it's just some crusty powder residue. It isn't like it is permanant or anything, just some fouling in the chamber area. I shoot 110 grains of 777 under a 250 grain shockwave in my Encore. Shot it countless times. Killed 10 deer in the past three years with it out to 175 yards and would not hesitate to shoot to 200 yards. True black powder probably would yeild even higher accuracy, but is very corrosive while the 777 is not. When I first started shooting my encore with this load, I had a bit of a crud ring between shots. A simple spit patch between shots, and it was gone. Now, I can shoot three times or more before I have to clean it if I have to. But, it is a M/L and I don't count on needing a second shot.

    Only a moderate amount of searching will yeild the following fact. As the sales of PBs grows and grows, so do the dissatisfied customers. Stories of bullets blowing up from people using magnum loads and realizing that the "improved" ballistics is just phooyey. There is no way that a 245 grain PB (the biggest piece of junk on the market today) can even begin to compare to any 250 grain 50 cal (40 or 45 cal projectile) on the market. And, if you make it a "pointy" bullet, like a shockwave, there is no comparison what so ever.

    If you are using a traditional M/L, with moderate powder charges, I would think a 295 grain PB, or heavier would be fine. But, a PB is nothing more than a copper washed maxiball with a fancy plastic skirt. Made of exxxxtreeeeemly soft lead. Why in the world would a person want to take a state of the art, modern inline and put a PB in it? If you have a modern gun, and are shooting magnum loads, go with a modern bullet that is designed to take those velocities and energy.
    Hank
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    Guns & GlassGuns & Glass Member Posts: 864 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hank, Disagree w/your thought on PB's, but we have some common ground on Pellets.

    PB's-They're not really easier than sabots once a sabot is assembled. Your right...they are more expensive, and offer possible improved ballistics, and performance which is why people will pay more.
    Bear in mind many of the MZL'r companies have networked w/componet makers...and many are making or having private labeling done. So they have a significant interest w/items having their name on them. It's big business, and often profits equal wholegoods.

    Most PB' sold are copper clad, and heavier loads are solid lead since the Specific Gravity of lead is heavier than copper, but it's not a 'soft lead' That's a common misunderstanding of the physical deformation of the bullet base...which is proper and necessary for a better gas seal, rifiling engagement, and to keep bore travel wobble to a minimum. Same thing happens to all sabots & Foster style slugs.

    Why is it that some rifles & loads work better w/44 cal sabot bullets, and other w/45 cal sabot bullets? Simply because of a better gas seal, and an increased fit between the shoe & lands. the PB has a similar engagement but it's mainly due to obituration fit.

    PB's also have patents....which gets others jealous. PB's are like comparing Brenneke slugs to many of todays shotgun slugs. For years they simply outshot Forrester style (still do), and equal some even surpass many of today's super expensive sabots. I built two Rem 1100 slug guns that print 3-shot 1 1/2" groups @ 150 yards using Brenneke's w/witnesses. Went thru over $70 worth of ammo in testing using many of todays slugs. Sent pictures to B Square, Zeiss, and Brenneke of the targets since I was using their tools.

    The new PB Platimum series besides an anti friction modifier, uses an improved rippled gas check, and should keep internal bore travel wobble and in flight yawing to a minimum for improved accuracy. Maybe this weekend I'll find out.

    As to the crud ring....it will occur due to the nitroglycerin compounding (that's where the extra energy come from) which reacts w/some 209's. Some lubricants especially petro based may be a catalyst in producing H2O, enhancing crud formation.

    Again I agree with you that it's better to do a post shot 'wipe' between shots, but that's not much difference when using black powder for more reliable ignition, and accuracy.
    But I confess, pellets are alot easier. I'll shoot Musket caps first over 209's, prefer small bore primers w/loose powder for accuracy.

    I meet many people at guns shows who stop at my display, and at the range who have very little idea of what's going on inside their barrel much less outside. Too often wind up helping which I don't mind, but confession time again....I get slighly perturbed at those who just buy & shoot w/out trying to learn anything. Now shoot only early AM to avoid wasting my precious range time.

    Just did a quick comparison of the Shock Wave and Power Belt, using the manufacturers published info.Published ballsitics are very, very similar for barrels, using pellets @ 100 grain loads. W/o being able to calculate a true sabot BC for each bullet & shoe combination, we can simply use mass & muzzle velocity to determine rough specs, but not extremely correct & accurate down range data.

    I also like that there is usually.....usually higher velocites w/PB's as there is alot less plastic build up in the bore. Which I hate having to scrub clean.
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    anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,627 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've been using the T/C jacketed 240 grain bullets with two pellets of 777, and they work fine. Only problem I had was that I committed the hunters cardinal sin. I did not practice and make sure I was sighted in properly. So I did it one deer too late! [:(]

    It was my all fault not the Omega 50 gun or the bullets or the primers or the powder.!

    Gotta work up your load before going hunting ... no matter what you are using.
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    Guns & GlassGuns & Glass Member Posts: 864 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    andersk,

    GREAT advice. You hit the nail on the head!
    Smartest thing written so far.
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    mwd571mwd571 Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shoot a sabot/ bullet combo. I hunt with the Barnes TMZ 250 grain on top of a weighed 777 90 grain FFFg charge in my knight revolution. I target shoot with the MMP short with a xp/htp 250 and 70 grain weighed 777.

    Work up your loads and the sabot/ bullet combo is a flatter shooting has a higher C and will kill a lot further out than theose PB and leave them in wally world
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    OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ahankster Posted - 09/14/2006 : 2:27:48 PM
    Don't waste your money on powerbelts.

    If you want great terminal performance and the optimal ballistics try the following load.

    a 250 grain shockwave loaded on top of 110 to 130 grains of 777, primer is your choice.

    Ballistics are great and the bullet will really perform as well.

    Hank


    I have had great experiences with PB @ the shooting range,
    I can shoot and reload and shoot 5 or 6 times before I need to run a spit path and do it again. had many a great day at the range. [8D]
    after I had worked up a load started with loose 777 then once I found that my rifle liked 100gr 777,I thought i'd see how 2-50gr 777 pellets performed. Both shot nearly identical out of "my gun".

    So I thought i'd go deer hunting [B)] "Big mistake" the bullets performed HORRIBLY, it was a sportsmens worst nightmare, as a hunter the last thing I wanted to do is cause the animal any undo pain and suffering, and that is the only thing I did while using PBs. I will never hunt with them again.

    I had previously used A 250gr Barnes X in the black magnum sabots that came with them. I never had the chance to see them performance while hunting. I just got Lazy and wanted something that loaded/reloaded easier. Not the greatest idea, I'd ever had. Im going back to some kind of sabot/bullet combo
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