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Some basic ML questions.

elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
Question #1
Lets assume I just shot an elk with a poorly placed shot and and the elk is going to run for miles if I don't finish the job. Should I still run a patch down the barrel between every shot?

I ran a little experiment today with not running a patch between shots. Shot #2 was fine but #3 was very difficult to seat.

I have more questions. Any input is appreciated.

Comments

  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think you decided to go with the PB bullets if i remember right. I have done that same experiment using 295gr PB, and the bullet was more difficult to seat.

    I shot three shot groups on several occasians and decided that in a pinch I wouldn't patch between shots. the difference between the first and second shot was only 1", most of the time and the difference between 2nd - 3rd was again 1 1/2" - 2" from the first.

    Either way you run about a 50/50 chance of tracking, either reload and and give him your second best shot, OR the exstra 20-30 seconds it takes to run a patch down and then reload, the elk has move out of sight and or range.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
    I think you decided to go with the PB bullets if i remember right. I have done that same experiment using 295gr PB, and the bullet was more difficult to seat.

    Yes. The 338 gr PB over 100gr of 777 with the 777 primer is working well.
    quote:
    I shot three shot groups on several occasians and decided that in a pinch I wouldn't patch between shots. the difference between the first and second shot was only 1", most of the time and the difference between 2nd - 3rd was again 1 1/2" - 2" from the first.

    Good info. Thanks.
    quote:
    Either way you run about a 50/50 chance of tracking, either reload and and give him your second best shot, OR the exstra 20-30 seconds it takes to run a patch down and then reload, the elk has move out of sight and or range.

    The plan is do it right the first time but if I need a 2nd shot I plan to skip the patch. If I NEED a 3rd I'll just go home and cry.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Question #2:
    If the projectile is not fully seated could it cause a misfire? If it does fire can it cause pressure problems?

    I had a misfire the other day and can't figure out why. Because I was doing a fouling test it is possible that I did not seat the PB correctly.
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What do you mean by misfire???

    I have never had one not go BANG.

    I have had a Hang fire, where you pull the trigger and hammer throws but there is a split second before the powder charge goes off. In my mind this would be the result of the bullet not being seated all the way down on the powder charge.

    As for the pressure??? i don't know. you are shooting 100grs and that is well below MAX loadof 150grs.

    I Put a scratch mark on my ram rod to mark where the bullet should be sheated. note that you will not be able to pack the powder the same way twice. exspecially giving any fouling that may or may not be in the barrel. it is just a aproximation and if i'm not more than 1/4-3/8" one way or the other I shoot it.

    NOTE if you are using a bullet starter while at the range, unless your ramrod is different than mine i can't store the ramrod in the gun while hunting with the bullet starter on it. make your mark accordingly

    I have heard that the new 777 primers that winchester is making aren't as great as they where hyped (sp?) up to be. Some guys have said that they don't always go BANG. I would suspect it was the Primers that caused the misfire, before i would suspect the bullet not being seated properly. Without fire there is no BANG!!!!

    I bought 100 of them but since I did not drawing this yr i haven't used any of them yet. i shoot alot of clay's and have win and rem 209's coming out of my ears. and that is what i have always used.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
    What do you mean by misfire???

    Pull trigger, hammer falls, no bang, inspect primer which did fire, replace primer, pull trigger, no bang, inspect primer which did fire, pull breech plug and remove load, unburned powder.
    quote:
    I have never had one not go BANG.

    I have had a Hang fire, where you pull the trigger and hammer throws but there is a split second before the powder charge goes off. In my mind this would be the result of the bullet not being seated all the way down on the powder charge.

    As for the pressure??? i don't know. you are shooting 100grs and that is well below MAX loadof 150grs.

    I Put a scratch mark on my ram rod to mark where the bullet should be sheated. note that you will not be able to pack the powder the same way twice. exspecially giving any fouling that may or may not be in the barrel. it is just a aproximation and if i'm not more than 1/4-3/8" one way or the other I shoot it.

    NOTE if you are using a bullet starter while at the range, unless your ramrod is different than mine i can't store the ramrod in the gun while hunting with the bullet starter on it. make your mark accordingly

    I have heard that the new 777 primers that winchester is making aren't as great as they where hyped (sp?) up to be. Some guys have said that they don't always go BANG. I would suspect it was the Primers that caused the misfire, before i would suspect the bullet not being seated properly. Without fire there is no BANG!!!!

    I bought 100 of them but since I did not drawing this yr i haven't used any of them yet. i shoot alot of clay's and have win and rem 209's coming out of my ears. and that is what i have always used.


    I'm going to stick with the 777 primers for now but I'll pick up some standard 209s and if it happends again I'll test the failed load with the hotter primer.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Odawgp, thanks for playing 20 question with me. Everyone I hunt with is either rifle or archery so I'm trying to figure out some of these details on my own. I appreciate your input.

    Question #3
    How much powder to you carry in the field? I have three speed loaders that I will carry but I'm not planning on carrying anymore powder in the field. Good plan...bad plan?
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I honestly have never had that happen before, have been present when it has happened to someone else but they where using musket caps.

    FYI. Pick up some pipe cleaners and clean out the flash hole in the breech plug real good. you had something funky going on in there that is for sure.
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is long so bear with me. I carry a phany pack and in it i keep all of the MZ possibles that i might need to be able to get at quickly.

    -2 condoms, "rain gear" keeps the water out of the barrel while hiking in the rain. the heat and the gases coming up the barrel blows a hole right through it. I used to buy the lillte rubbers that "i think it was" traditions made and packaged but for $8 bucks plain old rubbers from the drug store where cheaper and fit better[:o)]

    -four quick loaders, three "ORANGE" have the desired amount of pwdr and the fourth "GREEN" is full of exstra powder.

    NOTE i dont put my bullets in the quick loaders while hiking the powder can get worked up past and between the bullet and the side of the Q-loader I've had bullets gets stuck in there. While hunting i will take one Q-loader and put it in my shirt pocket for quick reloading.

    3-4 bullets depending on how much exstra pwdr i have, due to the fact that i dont put the bullets in the Q-loaders I keep 1 0r 2 bullets in just about every pocket i can think of. i am right handed so there is ussually 2pills in my right pants pocket, coat pocket and my "left" shirt pocket. "can't never have to many pills"

    Powder messure

    small altiods tin packed in it are.
    sergical gloves for the guttin
    TP multiple uses but for the most part it is in there to keep the primers from rattling around when/if all the patches get used.
    Several Patches
    10 +/- 209 primers

    NOTE My encore came with a priming stick/pen that i keep primed and ready to go in my shirt pocket.

    whistle case i fall down and hurt myself or get lost i have something i can signal someone with.

    cigarette lighter if need be i can light some of that exstra pwdr,patches or t/p and get a fire going under almost any situation

    In My Cammel Back,

    two Road Flares they are big but not to heavy and they will light anything on fire that the cigarette lighter won't, as well as sigle a search and resuce bird day or night.

    2-3 of my favorite energy bars

    1- space blanket i can use it to keep the rain off as well as keeping warm.

    Large ziplock bag
    inside it is
    Ibprophen case i hurt myself
    smaller ziplock bag with baby wipes
    And Some bandages for the cuts and scrapes

    If you haven't noticed i tend to wander along ways away from the truck the heaviest thing i carry besides the gun is the water.

    So the answer to your question is, its personal preference i take exstra powder both for hunting and survival purposes.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Very helpful. Thank you. I really like your thoughts on powder only in the Q-loaders and using additional loaders for bulk powder storage. You also answered my next question which was the best way to cover the muzzle to protect against water, and in this case STDs.
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:You also answered my next question which was the best way to cover the muzzle to protect against water, and in this case STDs.



    [8D]
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Question #4

    How often do you empty and reload? Every night? Every couple of days? Only if it has been wet?
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I generally don't unload, but if i suspect that there is thee slightest possibility that the load might be water fouled i'd unload it. Using 209 ignition the powder would have to be damm soggy wet IMO, not to go off. i have gone entire seasons without unloading and the last day fill my tag with the one and only load.

    your encore has the new speed breech i don't know how easy it is to load and unload using the new system, mine sucks 14 turns and then the powder goes everywhere but at least i can save most of it plus the bullet.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Odawgp
    I generally don't unload, but if i suspect that there is thee slightest possibility that the load might be water fouled i'd unload it. Using 209 ignition the powder would have to be damm soggy wet IMO, not to go off. i have gone entire seasons without unloading and the last day fill my tag with the one and only load.

    your encore has the new speed breech i don't know how easy it is to load and unload using the new system, mine sucks 14 turns and then the powder goes everywhere but at least i can save most of it plus the bullet.


    Now that the threads are cleaned up I'm a big fan of the speed breech. Takes more time to find the wrench then to pull the breech plug. It can be done standing without a bench in less then 10 sec.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Quesiton #5:

    Is there anything I can do to the barrel to help reduce fouling? I store it with a good layer of bore butter, should I be doing anything else.
  • OdawgpOdawgp Member Posts: 5,380 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Storing it with the bore butter is good.
    Seasoning the barrel everytime you are at the range will over time help it build up a coating of oil which will keep it from fouling as much.

    Seasoning Load and shoot it without patching it after storage. then swab it with spit patch then a patch with a little butter on it and then firing it again. Reapeat over and over this is similar to seasoning a dutch oven.

    Cleaning I don't use soapy water to clean out the barrel just plan HOT water. the soap will strip the seasoning out of the barrel. 777 is probably as close to water soluble as a black pwdr substitute gets. I throw the breech plug in a plastic cup with soapy water in it and let it get into the plug it's self and disolve any crude that builds up in there. then i use a pipe cleaner to scrub it. after that i toss the plug into Denatured Alcohol then remove and allow the alcohol to evaporate. this evaporates any water that is still in the breech plug, also run another alcohol soaked pipe cleaner through it.

    I do the same with the barrel swab with patches and hot water until they come out clean then, one patch with a Denatured alcohol on it to evap any water that has beeded up DO SCRUB IT just run one patch, one time through it. scrubbing it with alcohol will strip the Seasoning. then I bore butter the * out of the barrel don't be shy that stuff is cheap and it keeps the air from getting to the metal should there be any trace of pwdr left behind without the air it can't corrode. after awhile you will notice the bore will patina(sp?) turning a brownish copperish color this is the seasoning as well as copper being desopited in the tiny microscopic cuts and nicks that where left behind from the cutting process. it may take yrs depending on how much you shoot.

    The seasoning Process that i decribed is how i sighted mine in. it takes along time but i read it on other black powder forum. this the way the competition guys season their barrels. @ the range you'll notice that the first shot that comes out after you store the gun is alot higher than the next however many you shot. i would not use that first shot as a baseline. Sight it in using the Second shot as baseline and work from there. the large amount of bore butter used for storage really mess's with the velocity of the first shot.

    I have always gone to the range a night or two before the hunt and shoot a few down range Using the seasoning process inbetween shots. then i load it up for the hunt.
  • elkoholicelkoholic Member Posts: 5,130
    edited November -1
    Thanks again. You have mail.
  • anderskandersk Member Posts: 3,825
    edited November -1
    I did not take the charge out of my Omega 50 (just took out the primer which is legal here in MA! quite amazing because there are not many things that are legal) for the whole season. Then I put it away (with a BIG note to remind me that the powder and sabot was in the barrel) when I got it out to shoot it, I did shoot but it was a real wierd sounding shot. I'm not sure I want to rrisk messing up on the hunt.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    elk--check out the reviews of the 777 primer on Cabelas website. Your failure to fire with that particular primer seems to be common if you hunt the web for reviews. Apparently there have been LOTS of failures to fire with the 777 primer. The whole concept was to tone it down from the standard 209. It seems that they toned it down way too much and a bunch of people are having trouble with failures to fire because of the primer. Change primers. That's probably your answer.
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