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John Wesley Hardin's guns

v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
Just finished "The Pistoleer" by Blake about Hardin's escapades as viewed by people of the time.
Hardin talks about favoring the Colt Percussion 44 Army but is also quoted referring to his Remington.
His career spanned the percussion era to 1895, well into the double action revolver era.
A picture in a reprint of his autobiography shows an SAA 4 3/4 with ejector housing removed.
Apparently he carried two guns; one in a side holster and one in a modified vest holster.
Can anyone shed some light on his favorite guns?

Comments

  • R D HenryR D Henry Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The only two that I've ever heard of would be the 1860 Army, and the Colt Thunderer (some called it a Lightning).

    I've read in the past, that some of the old gunfighters actually favored the Remington over the Colt SAA.
  • spasmcreekspasmcreek Member Posts: 37,717 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    hardin's gun history went from cap & ball to sa & da colts...one of his was an ivory handled da colt 45 in the john bianchi frontier museum historical center...he used sa during his life & had one on at the time of his death
  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by R D Henry
    The only two that I've ever heard of would be the 1860 Army, and the Colt Thunderer (some called it a Lightning).

    I've read in the past, that some of the old gunfighters actually favored the Remington over the Colt SAA.


    I can't comment on who carried what, but the name "Lightning" was used for the .38 cal, and the "Thunderer" was the .41 cal.

    I think the proper name for it is the Colt Model 1877 Double Action Revolver.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Pursuant to your query, I read up on John Wesley Hardin in my cowboy book. He was one bad boy.
    For his first kill, he was 15 years old. He lived in the post Civil War south. He got into a wrestling match with a big former slave. He bloodied the ex slave's nose.
    The ex slave reportedly said, "No white boy will draw my blood and live."
    The next day, Hardin was riding his horse when the black guy accosted him. He wanted to fight again. Unfortunately for him, Hardin was packing his pistol. As the black guy approached him he fired. He knocked the guy down, but he got up and came at Hardin again. Hardin fired until his pistol was empty, killing the black guy.
    Bad deal in that era, as the state was governed by Yankee soldiers and freed blacks.
    Hardin's dad told him to go on the lam, and he fled to another state, and did not return home for ten years.

    Later, Hardin killed a man sleeping in the room above him in a hotel, because the man's snoring woke Hardin up.
    I admire him for that, I wanted so badly to do that to one of my fellow Paramedics who snored in the bunkhouse.

    Anyway, my book said next to nothing about Hardin's guns, except that one was a Colt .45
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just finished his autobiography.Apparently he used a variety of guns.
    He did express a fondness for the 1860 Army.
    He mentioned using a Bulldog, a pinfire, caplock shotguns and various borrowed guns. Two 41 cal Colts were found on his body. One was Ivory handled and the other black. I assume the Ivory handled gun was the SAA in a photo and the black one, a Thunderer.
    I'd like to find a source of more specifics on his gun preferences.
    He was an expert in looking for trouble, finding it and killing his adversaries, some of whom he provoked.
    He successfully used The Road Agent's Spin on Wild Bill Hickock; backing him off and again on an arresting officer, killing him.
    This was with the bulky 1860 Army.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What is the road agent's spin?
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The Road Agent's Spin involves drawing the pistols with a finger in triggerguard and hand off the grip. If you Google Road Agent's Spin
    there is some incredible gun handling video including the spin. The pistols are twisted around & presented to the adversary butts first as if surrendering them.. Then the gun is spun around,reversed, cocked and fired. Try it with a heavy SAA or 1860 Army. It's hard but Hardin practiced regularly in front of a mirror and was quoted as being a top notch gun handler.
    testimony by the Acme saloon owner after Selman blasted Hardin in the back of the head, was that Hardin had two 41 Colts on him, one with black handle and one with white. I'm assuming the black handled gun
    was the smaller Thunderer since he seemed to like one in a vest holster.
    A photo in the front of an original manuscript copy is of an ivory gripped SAA 4 3/4 w/o ejector.
    In Googling Hardin's guns, a 2 1/2 38 1877 Lightning in nickel with pearl grips comes up as does a 44 1878DA Colt.
    Funny, as I typed this, I am reminded of Pattons comment on pearl grips. Had he made it to Hardin he would have gotten one through the forehead in a twinkling.
    It gets confusing but one thing for sure is he liked the 1860 Army and carried one at least till 1878 when he was jailed.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have seen the Road Agent's Spin in some cowboy movies, but didn't know what it was called.
    That would be a cool move to pull, you would need to be well practiced at it, and have balls of brass, especially if the other guy was pointing a pistol at you.
  • mongrel1776mongrel1776 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It has nothing whatsoever to do with John Wesley Hardin or his guns, but in the movie "The Outlaw Josey Wales" Clint Eastwood (actually, his "hand double", since you don't see anything but the hands and guns as the stunt is performed) pulls a double road agent spin with a pair of Walker Colts. Whether these were actual Walkers, or rubber doubles, as is often done in movies, I don't know. Walkers weighed 4 1/2 pounds apiece. It would be something to see.

    I read on at least a couple of different occasions that Hardin used an 1860 Colt Army that had been converted to double-action, but that strikes me more as misinformation than credible fact. Converting the old percussion revolvers to cartridge was commonly done. Converting a single-action to double-action would involve a greater degree of combined gunsmithing expertise, difficulty, and consequent expense than I'm inclined to believe anyone would bother with. It's possible that the reference to a double-action involved someone's having confused an 1860 Army with the later-model Thunderer -- both were Colts and both seem to have been carried by Hardin, and to all-too-many "experts" that would mean they were the same gun.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    He did the Road Agent's Spin with a pair of 1860 Armies, in his own words, on Hickock besting him and getting Hickock's respect and friendship although following later incidents Hickock wanted Hardin killed.
  • reindeerreindeer Member Posts: 129 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hardin used the Colt 1860. The spin is seen the the Costner "Wyatt Earp" when the bad guys shot the old sheriff. It is a neat move but only a true dope would fall for it. Reindeer
  • oldgunneroldgunner Member Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know very little about the old west, but in my opinion that old "border spin" and other similar show off things likely never happened in real life. Me thinks they were invented by Hollywood.
  • mongrel1776mongrel1776 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I second that. Those tricks look cool, and it's easy to imagine a gunfighter, shootist, pistoleer, call him what you like, practicing them all to be ready for every imaginable crisis -- but I'd guess the vast majority prepared for their gunfights by having a gun in hand and ready to shoot before they walked into it. The only movie stunt I put any credibility in is a form of the fast draw. Not the classic two guys facing one another and going for their guns, but someone who'd carried his gun day-in, day-out for years, used it many times, taking advantage of an opponent's distraction or betting the other guy would hesitate before pulling the trigger, and pulling his gun and going to work. Not so much a conscious fast draw, as just drawing under pressure and familiarity speeding the process up. "Take your time quickly" is how I've heard it put, once or twice.

    Tradition seems to maintain that Curly Bill Brocious did use the road agent's spin (also known as the Curly Bill spin, BTW) against Fred White, but even if the incident can be documented by witnesses, or was testified to in court during the post-shooting hearing, strict adherence to the truth wasn't a strong point of legal proceedings or newspaper reporting at that time. Participants in both processes consciously provided entertainment, in addition to occasionally arriving at justice or informing the public. Hmm, that would describe both processes quite well even today....

    Makes more sense that, instead of trying one stunt or another that could easily go wrong and make him look like a fool, as well as dead, the typical gunman would have gone with the better odds and waited for either his opponent to make a mistake and one way or another allow him to escape, or for his buddies to come bail him out -- either with cash or with lead.
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