In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
muzzle loaders for special seasons
student1946
Member Posts: 11 ✭✭
I have owned several reproduction muzzle-loaders,rifles and one shotgun.All my guns were cap-lock;never learned to use a flintlock.My point is that all of them required special knowledge and care to harvest game in comparison to any modern rifle,thus making a special season a reasonable idea (as it is for bow hunting).The new inline muzzle-loaders,save for being slower to reload,are in no way inferior to any number of cartridge guns;just as accurate,just as waterproof,equal or better trajectory and power to many brush calibers.I think they are fine hunting tools,but they do not(in my opinion)need nor should they be given the same special season as the traditional cap lock or flintlock.What say you members???
Comments
The secret of in-lines' accuracy and power is in the fast-twist rifling. Rule that out and you rule out a wide range of original guns and replicas thereof, including 18th century flintlock jaeger rifles, which were by and large rifled with fast twists.
Adjustable or scoped sights? Scopes date back to at least the Civil War. Adjustable sights, along with most any other form of metallic sighting equipment, were used as early as the matchlock period. Not commonly, but still used.
Conical bullets? Pre-Civil War.
In-line ignition? Both underhammer and sidelock percussion systems qualify as in-lines. Primitive forms of what we generally consider "in-lines" today were experimented with in the flintlock period.
The simple modern appearance of in-lines? What I consider the sheer beauty and grace of a five-foot-long flintlock rifle might not appeal in the least to the next guy down the line, and how should my tastes or opinions carry more weight than his?
I am far more concerned that a hunter be responsible with whatever he or she is packing into the field, than with the exact design of whatever gun that might be. I have issues with the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders, but this is a safety and common sense concern, not one of my sense of tradition being violated. I have no faith in the ability of many persons to understand that, though a Savage muzzleloader can be loaded with smokeless, a T/C or a CVA or most any other brand or model CAN'T. And, while I would be content to let nature weed out the weak and foolish, including those who refuse to read directions, unfortunately in our liability-happy society it doesn't stop at that. I still wouldn't suggest banning the Savage or any other model of ML rifle, but I question the good sense of having taken that particular step. Time will tell....
So, in answer to your final question -- I say leave it be, so long as I'm left be in return.
C&P from the Oregon State game laws under 'definitions'-
>>>>>"Muzzleloader" is any single barreled
(shotguns may be double barreled)
long gun meant to be fired from the
shoulder and loaded from the muzzle
with an open ignition system and open
or peep sights. This definition applies to
muzzleloader-only seasons and 641B,
644A1, 644A2, 644A3, 644T1, 649B and
652T2 and includes: open ignition in-line
percussion; sidelock, under-hammer,
top-hammer, and mule ear percussion;
sidelock flintlock and wheelock ignition
systems. Matchlock ignition systems are
not allowed.<<<<<
A few years ago I shot an inline that belonged to a friend of mine. I don't remember what kind it was, but other than the ramrod it looked pretty much like any other stainless steel bolt action scoped rifle with a composite stock. Shot just like one too. Other than being a little slower to load & *much* more expensive to shoot it was like any very nice bolt action rifle. It wasn't anything I'm interested in for a muzzle loader, but a very nice rifle. Especially when he told me the price of the powder pellets, bullets, sabots & whatnot. I have lots of bolt action rifles & one T/C .50 caliber Hawken rifle. I shoot cast round balls & 2F. Costs ten or twenty cents a bang, depending on how much black I dump in it. Balls are free, patches are close. That's one of the things I really like about it, it costs about the same to plink with as quality .22 rimfire ammo. The Hawken almost always goes bang & if it decides not to for one reason or another it's no big deal to me. It's fun to fiddle with. The inline I shot was a very nice gun & it's fine with me if other people want to hunt with that type rifle, it's just not my cup of tea. As long as it's safe & your having fun it's okey dokey with me.
Btw, the guy with the inline used it to bag an elk in New Mexico or Arizona or somewhere shortly after I shot it.
I started hunting with a muzzleloader in 1982 in Georgia, because I wanted to try it. There was no special season for muzzleloaders back then, nor would there be one for 20 more years.
I had a TC Hawken, and I built a Tennessee Mountain Rifle from a kit. I killed 7 deer and 6 wild hogs with my muzzleloaders, I loved to hunt with them.
Today, my eyes are not so good, and I can't make a good shot with iron sights. So, I shoot a Savage muzzleloader with a scope.
I do think that my Savage is not in the spirit of the original special season for muzzleloaders. If it were up to me, the special season would be for percussion sidehammer, and flintlock only. I know that Pennsylvania used to be flintlock only.
But, it is not up to me. The inline industry calls the shots these days. I'd like to see the statistics, but I will bet you that 95 percent of sales are inlines.
For instance, real primitive muzzleloader seasons were the law of the land, Knight would be out of business within twelve months.
Not gonna happen.
The first season would be right after bow season and would be a "primitive weapons" season. Longbows, recurves, caplock and flintlock only. Iron sights on the muzzleloaders (no fiber optics) and no sights on the bows.
The second season would come after the firearms season and would be a "muzzleloader"/archery season. During that season as long as it meets the definition of a muzzleloader or archery tackle (including crossbows) then you can use it. That way you get two special seasons and all parties are happy (yeah, right).
PA has a doe-only muzzleloader season before gun season, and then a flintlock only season after gun season is over. Do you know how hard it is to get a deer to come within 75 yards after they have been blasted at for a month by every swinging Richard with their '06s? That is why I say that PA is backwards. But they have the right idea.
There is an island off the Georgia coast called Cumberland. I learned that they had a one week hunt down there.
The only access to the island is ferry boat, there are no cars on the island, though it is 12 miles long. For 51 weeks of the year it is for beachcombing and camping. I have gone camping there and it is great, you pitch your tent under these giant live oaks with Spanish moss hanging there. There is a bathroom and showers [solar heated].
For one week, all the campers are run off and they allow hunting by pistols and muzzleloaders only. You camp in that same campground.
Well the place is overrun with deer and hogs.
It is run by the Feds.
So my buddy and I got drawn and down we went. Only about 100 hunters allowed. This was 1984 before inlines were in the picture. I figured this would be the place to meet some serious blackpowder guys.
I took my Tennessee Mtn Rifle that I had built.
The first night a guy in an adjacent camp came over and was admiring my rifle. He said, "You must know a lot about muzzleloading if you built your own rifle. Would you show me how to shoot this thing?"
He had just bought a CVA Hawken at Walmart the day before and had never fired it!
I made an excuse, I didn't want to be a part of his disastrous introduction to muzzleloading.
The next morning I heard a lot of shooting but I didn't get a shot.
A guy came into camp and said he had fired 9 times. He said that he missed all 9 times because every time he fired the animal ran away!
There were no shots to be had over 60 yards on that island.
I had heard enough, I asked the Ranger when the next ferry arrived, and I took the noon ferry back to the mainland. I was on the island less than 24 hours. Hell it took six hours to drive down there!
So, just because it is traditional muzzleloaders does not mean that sophisticated hunters will partake. Make a special season, or special hunt, and the morons come out of the woodwork.
Well as far as attracting responsible hunters, let me tell you a story.
There is an island off the Georgia coast called Cumberland. I learned that they had a one week hunt down there.
The only access to the island is ferry boat, there are no cars on the island, though it is 12 miles long. For 51 weeks of the year it is for beachcombing and camping. I have gone camping there and it is great, you pitch your tent under these giant live oaks with Spanish moss hanging there. There is a bathroom and showers [solar heated].
For one week, all the campers are run off and they allow hunting by pistols and muzzleloaders only. You camp in that same campground.
Well the place is overrun with deer and hogs.
It is run by the Feds.
So my buddy and I got drawn and down we went. Only about 100 hunters allowed. This was 1984 before inlines were in the picture. I figured this would be the place to meet some serious blackpowder guys.
I took my Tennessee Mtn Rifle that I had built.
The first night a guy in an adjacent camp came over and was admiring my rifle. He said, "You must know a lot about muzzleloading if you built your own rifle. Would you show me how to shoot this thing?"
He had just bought a CVA Hawken at Walmart the day before and had never fired it!
I made an excuse, I didn't want to be a part of his disastrous introduction to muzzleloading.
The next morning I heard a lot of shooting but I didn't get a shot.
A guy came into camp and said he had fired 9 times. He said that he missed all 9 times because every time he fired the animal ran away!
There were no shots to be had over 60 yards on that island.
I had heard enough, I asked the Ranger when the next ferry arrived, and I took the noon ferry back to the mainland. I was on the island less than 24 hours. Hell it took six hours to drive down there!
So, just because it is traditional muzzleloaders does not mean that sophisticated hunters will partake. Make a special season, or special hunt, and the morons come out of the woodwork.
Absolutely. In the event I ever give the impression that I consider traditionalists to be, by definition, responsible and mature -- no. Or at least no more so than any other given group. I could go into considerable detail (but won't) about morons I've encountered, who had no business being in the field with drinking straws and plastic pellets to blow through them, let alone guns of any sort. The fact that a few of these idiots have been carrying beautifully authentic flintlock and percussion rifles is of no consequence to me. One of the worst offenders, as a matter of fact, carried a rifle I built.
Responsibility and respect for the game, the law, and the people we come in contact with, that's all I ask. The fact that I'm apparently asking way too much does us more harm, as hunters, than all the propaganda of the anti-gunners and anti-hunters. For some people, all it takes is one encounter with one irresponsible hunter or shooter to be persuaded that what the antis say about us must, by and large, be true.