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Whatever happened to flintlocks?
Mr. Gunz
Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭
Today I was watching Guns&Ammo TV and I saw a commercial for a in-line muzzleloader, it had a (get this) electronic ignition instead of a 209 primer...they claimed it was faster ignition (can a human tell? I think not) Then they said you didnt need to be fumble with primers and it was the new hot thing....that right there defeats the perpose of muzzleloading. Its supposed to be primitive not some hightech thing that has centerfire preformance...Rant over.
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Primitive you say? Why not demand that ML hunters only use a Matchlock, that should be "primitive" enough for everyone.
All that electronic ignition does is provide a faster lock time between trigger pull (squeeze) and ignition. This decrease in time will (perhaps) allow for more accurate shot placement. It's a hunters responsibility to take the game as quickly and cleanly as possible, right?
Good thing I had my snaphance in a saddle socket.
iceracerx has a valid point. I expect ole Crockett and Dan'l Boone used the most modern gun they could afford. I see no reason not to do the same now. However I have a brother who prefers percussion rifles to the point that he uses nothing else, even during the regular gun season. I don't see anything wrong with that either.
Speaking of fumbling with primers ... been there done that! But I am going to stick with it! It's all part of the BP thing ... it's a tinkerers sport!
That said -- in a recent issue of "Fur, Fish, and Game", Toby Bridges managed to include, in an article about in-lines, a question as to whether or not the .45 caliber roundball -- or any roundball -- should be legal for deer hunting. The fact of being a lifelong gun owner, originally from California, makes me a bit paranoid about anyone, anywhere, any time, in any way raising the question of what firearms or ammunition should or should not be legal. If, as in my paranoia I suspect might be the case, this was an opening shot in a campaign by one or another manufacturer of "modern" muzzleloaders to broaden their market by eliminating the "inefficient, underpowered" roundball and by extension the rifles that fire it (all in the name of hunting ethics -- more terminal ballistics, cleaner kills, etc. and b.s.), my counter-suggestion will be, not to ban any form of gun at all for hunting purposes, here in Indiana, but to open the muzzleloading season to all firearms that can be legally used for deer hunting in this state. Be interesting to see how many of the guys who use in-lines for the sake of that extra season would switch over to their shotguns if given the chance -- and what effect that would have on in-line sales. Us traditionalists would go on using our roundball-slinging sidelocks. We were never in this for an extra season or to wring "modern" ballistics from "primitive" firearms.
"Live and let live" has already been stated. I request the same. I have no desire to mock, belittle, or ban either what you shoot or your point of view. This would be the case whether I shot an in-line or my .50 flinter. We have enemies enough without becoming enemies to one another.
Obviously, I'm new here. The previous forum I participated in had to completely ban the discussion of in-lines, the topic set so many people off. I found out the hard way that being open-minded and aware that we actually live in the year 2007, and not 1807, did not sit well with a number of those same people. I realized I had better things to do than get sucked into arguments with them. On one hand I was reluctant to even comment on the original topic of this thread; but, on the other hand, if what you say is true (and, viewing posts on other topics, it appears to be), and polite discussion is the norm here, then I'm glad I checked in.
As for in-lines versus sidelocks, I have both, use both and love both. My caplock is very special to me as it was built from a kit by my father and carried by him at many rendezvous and every year during muzzleloader season. It passed to me when he passed away and I make it a point to take it out every year. So far I have been able to take a deer with it every year since he passed (8 years so far).
I also have an Encore inline. As you can see from my screen name that I hunt with handguns. I have not taken my rifles hunting but twice in the last five years. I use my Encore during the regular rifle season when I plan on hunting somewhere where I may get a shot longer than I feel comfortable shooting with my handguns. Now that I have a couple of legitimate 200 yard handguns, my inline won't see much use either.
Historically, major changes in weapons systems have only succeeded where they addressed and solved an acknowledged problem with the existing technology -- and, even then, changes were often resisted, sometimes to the point of absurdity.
The bow and arrow did away with the limitations of throwing stuff by hand. Hand cannons and then matchlocks had advantages over bows, though not to a sufficient degree to do away with the older weapon (as a 20th/21st century person, I must be vastly undervaluing the sheer shock effect of the earliest firearms, because they seem far too slow and inaccurate to have ever held their own with bows and those who could use them). The wheellock did away with much of the unreliability and danger inherent in even the best of matchlock mechanisms. Flintlocks, and by that I mean also miquelets, snaphaunces, and other forerunners of the "true" flintlock, offered a degree of reliability that surprises many modern shooters, at a fraction of the cost and complication of the wheellock design. Percussion guns eliminated much of the remaining iffiness of ignition that flintlocks were prone to if maintenance were neglected or the weather turned wet. The metallic cartridge eliminated numerous steps from the process of loading and firing, as well as almost all vulnerability to the weather. The advantages of repeaters over single-shots (in situations where needing more than one shot is a given, and time to spare between shots is usually lacking) are fairly obvious; and, finally, smokeless powder made possible a degree of precision and power, on a routine basis, that even the best BP cartridges historically haven't approached.
Rather than ask what the benefits of electronic ignition might be, my question is, what glaringly obvious problems in existing firearms are solved by this previously-tried, previously-failed system? Lacking an answer to that question, in the minds of consumers (whose purchasing power is what will ultimately make or break any product), electronic ignition would appear not to have much of a future. The issue isn't whether or not it works, or even works better, but that what we have works fine and, just as importantly, is familiar to us.
Personally I have a sidelock and an in line. If I ever get to where I actually have the time I may try a flintlock for the hobby of it. However I like to hunt and usually just use muzzle loaders as an excuse to extend my season. I'm all for the purist who enjoy what they do, as stated I may join them if I ever have the time to devote to it. I personally will help promote any safe concept that will add to our ranks to help promote the future of hunting.
Scout
I hunted with rifles in Canada for 27 years, but down here in Massachusetts I had to go primitive. So I got a T/C Omega 50 nice shooting gun, but it just doesn't look like a gun - dressed in camo & Stainless Steel ... so I am now shooting an Italian made Hawken with percussion caps - plenty primitive for me! Now to get a deer or two THIS winter!
I'm sticking with my in-line for hunting and maybe on really good weather days, I may take my Percussion Cap Hawken. But today at the range I forgot to put in the black stuff again ... I am getting better at pulling the ball! Practice is a good deal ... actually, it is essential![:D]
Why I like flintlock muzzle loading!
Before legally being able to hunt at 12 years old, I have always been on the edge of technology. Thinking that them dirty, stinky rotten egg fart smelling, inaccurate smokepoles were for the 'older hunters', and the guys who didn't care to take the time to learn modern ballistics.....till three years ago.
#1. Friendship.
One of my friends who a sports writer took me out on a really cold, post rainy windy day before Christmas, taught me how to load and fire a flintlock....which started to get me hooked. Bought a cheap flintlock (remember I modern so it had a synthetic stock) just in case I didn't like muzzleloading.
#2. Joy of learning something new.
#3. Joy of experimenting. Being a newbie w/a technical backround, working w/different foreign/American companies, and having hunted w/some sports writers....I don't believe everthing I hear or read.
#4. WITHOUT. Late season hunting in Pennsylvania without orange, without hunters all over the place, without fear of being shot. I was hit once many years ago, and almost a second time. First time I stopped hunting for 14 years!
#5. Quieter, and more peaceful.
#6. Excitement of the stalk.
#7. Excitement of the challange of having only one shot.
#8. Hunting in the snow. Sometimes it does snow.
#9. Historical appreciation more, and more for my forefathers, and
what they went through.
#10. Challange of primitive hunting.
I have upgraded my flintlocks, and also use in-line, but prefer flintlock.
IMHO....todays hunters have become lazy, and dumbed down.
Part of that is the younger hunters...and the fault of us older hunters not talking the time to 'grow' younger hunters.
Part of it is we want easier & faster results. Buy the new advertised rifle, drop in the advertised load componets, sight the target, and shoot the advertised tight group. BULL!
Part of it is primitative hunting requires more "alone time". One must spend more time with his rifle, and have to mentally entertain oneself. Just had a healthy friend call me from his ground blind on his cell phone to talk. My phone stays in the truck when I hunt.
Well, that's just my thoughts and feelings, but I'm having FUN!
Have you?
joelH- Thank you for the pictures of some great looking guns. Reads as though your the maker. I'm jealous! Keep up the great work.
JoelH Thank you for the pictures, gets me all warm and fuzzy looking at those fine flints. Are any of them your work?
My sentiment exact!! Fine Guns Joel!
Now let me throw something into the ring!!
I have a 577 Snyder Enfield. Would I be able to hunt during "Black Powder Season"??
I'm using a Paperpatched 600 Grain Mini I cast. It's the same I use on my 58 Cal Caplock. I shoot at 100 Yard Targets (I only have 5 shells) and when you fire it goes "Bang ........Tock". You can hear when the bullet hits the Target. I think the Snyder is a "Khyber" special... But it shoots with NO PROBLEM!![:D]
(I also have a 45 flint, a 44 Single Pistol and a 44 Colt Walker and a 36 Colt Navy) All are reprods and the Rifles and Pistol I put together from Kits.
quote:Originally posted by Underdog2264
JoelH Thank you for the pictures, gets me all warm and fuzzy looking at those fine flints. Are any of them your work?
My sentiment exact!! Fine Guns Joel!
Now let me throw something into the ring!!
I have a 577 Snyder Enfield. Would I be able to hunt during "Black Powder Season"??
I'm using a Paperpatched 600 Grain Mini I cast. It's the same I use on my 58 Cal Caplock. I shoot at 100 Yard Targets (I only have 5 shells) and when you fire it goes "Bang ........Tock". You can hear when the bullet hits the Target. I think the Snyder is a "Khyber" special... But it shoots with NO PROBLEM!![:D]
(I also have a 45 flint, a 44 Single Pistol and a 44 Colt Walker and a 36 Colt Navy) All are reprods and the Rifles and Pistol I put together from Kits.
Here in Indiana you couldn't use the Snyder, it being a breechloader. Ours is specifically a "muzzleloader" season. That's here, though. You want to check with your area DNR or whatever equivalent of same you have in your neck of the woods.
-I have heard that the electric BP rifle has been deemed illegal during BP or muzzle-loader season in at least one state.
I have always thought that the reason for having a separate season is to provide BP shooters an opportunity to take game at the shorter ranges usually associated with BP rifles.
Typically, there is some lag time that BP weapons experience between the hammer striking the flint or the percussion cap and ignition of the charge. Obviously there is more hesitation with the flintlocks than with the percussion guns, but still, there is that slight time lag between dropping the hammer on the cap and ignition taking place.
Think about the difference this way:
The electric gun is essentially a cartridge gun. The only difference is that the electric gun shooter "reloads his brass" after each shot. The immediate, instant ignition of the powder charge by the electric ingnition is comparable to a cartridge primer.
Eventually this will morph into a muzzle loader rifle that will handle smokeless powder and regular rifle slugs. For what? To get the advantage of shooting during muzzle loading season and having a leg up on everyone else? This essentially is "gaming", wherein a few violate the spirit of the rules governing muzzle loading season by coming up with a "trick" gun.
Long time shooters have seen this sort of thing ruin various shooting sports by gamers who make incrementally more radical modifications to the guns used in that sport and the administrators of those sports taking no action to curtail it.
That's why it's wrong.
--
-I have heard that the electric BP rifle has been deemed illegal during BP or muzzle-loader season in at least one state.
I have always thought that the reason for having a separate season is to provide BP shooters an opportunity to take game at the shorter ranges usually associated with BP rifles.
Typically, there is some lag time that BP weapons experience between the hammer striking the flint or the percussion cap and ignition of the charge. Obviously there is more hesitation with the flintlocks than with the percussion guns, but still, there is that slight time lag between dropping the hammer on the cap and ignition taking place.
Think about the difference this way:
The electric gun is essentially a cartridge gun. The only difference is that the electric gun shooter "reloads his brass" after each shot. The immediate, instant ignition of the powder charge by the electric ingnition is comparable to a cartridge primer.
Eventually this will morph into a muzzle loader rifle that will handle smokeless powder and regular rifle slugs. For what? To get the advantage of shooting during muzzle loading season and having a leg up on everyone else? This essentially is "gaming", wherein a few violate the spirit of the rules governing muzzle loading season by coming up with a "trick" gun.
Long time shooters have seen this sort of thing ruin various shooting sports by gamers who make incrementally more radical modifications to the guns used in that sport and the administrators of those sports taking no action to curtail it.
That's why it's wrong.
I agree with all of the above, except the point of it being "wrong". Had there been any reliable way of foretelling the future, when the ML seasons went into effect, I suspect there would have been more specific wording as to performance -- that ballistics beyond the capabilities of traditional muzzleloaders would have been ruled out, thus nipping in the bud what has come to pass: muzzleloaders that seriously outperform historical expectations, muzzleloaders that load with smokeless powder, electronic ignition, etc. Not to mention, a rather large segment of the muzzleloading population that couldn't care less about anything but optimum performance and the opportunity of an extra season. HOWEVER -- this future was not foretold, things are as they are, and I won't use the word "wrong" in expressing my opinion as to what the ML seasons were intended to be, in the beginning, and by extension my opinion of the reality that some have made of that intent. I would sooner agree to disagree and allow other shooters their choice of weapons, so long as they're legal and safe -- and so long as they don't start making noises about banning my flinter or other rifles that offer something less than the pinnacle of modern muzzleloading performance.
I've done that but I always unscrew the nipple & dribble a few grains of powder in, thump it with my hand, dribble in a few more & when I can't get any more to go in I replace the nipple & shoot the ball out. Pretty quick & easy.