What size .45 round balls for a T/C Patriot?

Oregunner

I bought a T/C Patriot .45 caliber pistol last week in the GB auction. I don't have it in hand yet so I can't check the bore. I have an order going in for some assorted stuff & the outfit I'm ordering from has .433", .440", .445", .451", .454" & .457" round balls. Can anyone tell me which size is appropriate for the Patriot?

Thanks in advance,

EDIT: Never mind, I found the info on the T/C site. Thanks anyway.

rgerge

I'd start with the .445 and a .010 patch, then play around with the patch size and your powder charge to see what suits you best.

Oregunner

Thanks for the reply. I found on the T/C website that they reccomend .440". Since that post I've gotten the gun & my molds. The gun arrived first so I bought a box of factory .440" balls so I would be able to shoot it last weekend. Then it poured rain all weekend long so I still haven't been able to shoot it. *Maybe* tomorrow.

Had I realized round balls were so cheap before I ordered molds I probably would have just bought three hundred balls for $30 & had enough to last me the rest of my life. Oh well, now I'll feel obligated to shoot it more. Since it was advertised as a target pistol I'm really hoping it shoots well. So far all I know for sure is I like the sight picture & the trigger.

T/C says to charge it with between 20 & 35 grains of 3F. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good target load in this pistol?

I got some of that foaming blackpowder bore cleaner. I really hope it makes cleaning the Patriot & my old T/C Hawken a little less tedious.

Thanks folks

Underdog2264

Here is the load we have shot with Patriots for years with pick a flea off a fly's but accuracy at 25 yard and 50 yard bench, and better than I can shoot off hand. Start with a .440 ball with a spru or flat spot and .12 dry patch or .15 pre-lubed,(a little secret, use a silk patch for an extra couple yards of on a windy day) our best consistent load is 27 grains of Goex 3F and CCI caps. We have also had good luck with other powders loading at 25 grains and up to 30 depending on the range. The key to the Patriot is loading the same way every time. From the weave of the patch to the placement of the ball and cap. My wife and I have competed with Patriots for 12 years and have shamed many a fancy gun, (My shooting skills can not take credit for that)My wife has even won a match against a modern cartage pistol with hers, using the load mentioned.

tsr1965

Have the bore slugged first to get the dimensions of the lands and grooves. In my 45 cal Cherokee, I use a .451 and a .007 patch. The ball actually engraves the rifling, and the patch is used for a seal only. The .440, and .015 combination will spin the patch around the ball in a 1:48 twist. The .451, and .007 turned out to be a tack driver.

Oregunner

Thanks a lot, I was hoping someone with experience with a Patriot could give me some pointers. I took mine out & shot it the other day. I found on the T/C website that the suggested loads were from 20 to 35 grains of 3F. So, using .440" Speer factory balls, 27 grains of 3F GOEX (because that's how much will fit in an empty .45 ACP case & it looked like a middle of the road load, I didn't have a proper small powder measure yet), Remington caps (I had them on hand) & .015" factory T/C patches lubed with Hoppes #9 Plus for starters. Frankly, the results were rather disappointing- 5"-6" groups at 25 yards. I bumped the load up to 35 grains (heaped full .44 Special case, max according to the T/C website) & the groups nearly doubled in size. So I tried filling the ACP cases about half full, approximately 14 grains. Those grouped much better. One 4 shot group was about 2" with a fifth flyer opening it up to around 3". All in all I ran 33 rounds through it the first time out.

I have since found a proper adjustable powder measure & some .018" pre-lubed T/C factory patches & some T/C Bore Butter to try with the .015" patches. The way it was shooting it appeared to me that the ball wasn't getting enough spin to stabilize, especially with the heavier loads.

The gun appeared to be unfired when I got it. I could see all the way to the breech plug & it looked new & unfired. I have had several people tell me that a new ML bore may need 75 to 100 rounds through it before it will start to group to it's potential. I hope that's right. First chance I get I'm going to try it with the thicker patches & the thinner ones with different lube & see what happens. Maybe after 100 rounds it will start to come around.

Any further suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks much!

Oregunner

quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
Have the bore slugged first to get the dimensions of the lands and grooves. In my 45 cal Cherokee, I use a .451 and a .007 patch. The ball actually engraves the rifling, and the patch is used for a seal only. The .440, and .015 combination will spin the patch around the ball in a 1:48 twist. The .451, and .007 turned out to be a tack driver.


Your reply appeared while I was replying to the previous one. I don't know how to slug the bore without pulling the breech plug & I don't have a way to do that at this point. I guess I'll try the thicker patches first & see what happens.
Thanks!

tsr1965

To help season your bore, take the barrel off, and remove the nipple. Clean it in boiling hot soapy water, using a patch and jag, and dry it immediately. After drying, run a heavily bore buttered patch down the barrel, while it is still hot. This will let the bore butter sink into the pores that are open.

I was contemplating that T/C used the same 45 caliber barrel stock for the rifles as it did the pistol. That is why the suggestion with the .451 ball and .007 patch. I have used that, and the bullet actually bites the rifling.

To slug the bore, you will need a ball puller, and a 50 or 54 caliber pure lead ball, a wooden 3/8 dowel@ 12 inches long, and some good lube like the bore butter.

Have the lubed barrel firmly in a padded vise, and put the ball on the muzzle crown, take the dowel and a mallot and drive it into the bore. Use your ball puller on the ramrod screw or compressed air in the nipple to get the ball back out. If using compressed air, discharge the ball into a pile of towels to keep from damaging the rifling you need to measure.

Oregunner

Thank you, I can do all that with what I have on hand.

Oregunner

I got the barrel cleaned with the soapy boiling water, rinsed it out & gave it a healthy coat of Bore Butter. I can see all the way in there & that really did get it squeaky clean. It looks new again. Since Underdog & Mrs. have had excellent results with .440" balls in several Patriots I didn't slug the bore.

My brother in law gave me twelve or fifteen pounds of pure lead the other day so I cast up 430 .440" roundballs. I could have made more but I didn't want to chance getting into the dirty stuff. Those should last quite a while. I really like the Lee aluminum molds. I already had four or five sets of Lee molds & these .440" double cavity blocks are sweet to work with. I cleaned 'em & used a little Drop Out on 'em & after the first half dozen or so they were nearly all good balls. It never took more than a light tap to get 'em out either. My calipers say they're between .4395 & .441. Most are .440. That should be close enough. I suppose I could cull for perfect size, but I'm going to try them first. I think I have everything I need to start putting more precise rounds through it tomorrow. Hopefully it will begin to group for me. If it's not a little warmer than it was today I might pass. Brrr.

Oregunner

The weather finally gave me a small window to try a little shooting today so I shot the Patriot again, only this time I used measured 20 grain loads of 3F & .018" pre-lubed pillow ticking patches, being careful to line up the ticking the same way each time. I am amazed.

http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001689091276190885

This time it was a bit harder to load but what a difference in group size! I shot a few rounds through it, swabbed out the bore, fired one more & then shot this group. From the 4-5 inch groups I was getting before it's now shooting just over an inch @ 25 yards! This sucker will shoot if I load it right!

This is my first try at a picture on here so I hope it works.

Underdog2264

CONGRATS! now you know the joy of the Patriot. I will have to try your powder load, what type are you shooting?

Oregunner

I was using GOEX 3F & a Remington #11 cap. Patches were T/C .018" ticking pre-lubed with Bore Butter. The powder is pretty old but it seems to work just fine. The can has a sticker on it from Centwise Sporting Goods for $9.95. I bought another pound a few weeks ago from the same place. The sticker looks almost the same but the price is now $19.95. The Rem. caps were new, I shot up all my old ones last time out. I'm astonished at how well this pistol will shoot. I appreciate your previous post about how well your Patriots shoot Underdog. I was rather disappointed with it's performance last time out & your post gave me hope of improvement. And I got it. In spades. This is a great shooting pistol & I can't imagine why T/C dropped them from the line. I really like the sights too, excellent sight picture for target shooting.

Underdog2264

The reason for dropping the patriot from there line was a fire at there plant back in the 80's they lost there woodworking plant and several component casting parts of the Patriot, Seneca and Cherokee. At the time, they couldn't justify the cost of replacing the parts to retool and make arms that were "not very popular". There have been several copies made over the years but none have matched the look feel and performance of the Patriot. The only pistol that I have shot that I like better is the Patriot in .36 cal. All the same characteristics as the 45 with almost no recoil, and after almost 10 years of looking I have yet to own one, but a friend at some of the rendezvous we go to lets me shoot his,(it comes with a price... I get to shoot it and he gets to turn into an 8 year old and say "I have something you don't have...na na na na boo boo".) And he does every time!

Underdog2264

I am going out today to the range and have decided to bring out the Patriots ( thanks to you !) and warm them up for the season. I will have to try your load and see if it does as well for my old clunker.

Oregunner

I hope it works as well for you. I got the 20 grain load from an old T/C book a friend loaned me. The pages reproduced on the net that can be downloaded aren't quite the same as the book. The numbers are the same but the book has a large asterisk next to the loads they found to be most accurate in all the ML's they used to make. They give velocities for charges from 20 grains to 35 grains for the Patriot & the 20 grain load is the one with the asterisk. I was frustrated with the pages I downloaded because they had the notation that "The loads with the asterisks were the ones found to be most accurate in their tests", just like in the book. But there are no asterisks with the loads shown. I marked most of them from the book on the pages I had downloaded & printed out. I think they said 20 grains for the .36 as well but I'm not positive. My books are out in my shop or I'd look. I hope yours shoot well for you today. The wind chill here is 4 degrees this morning. I was planning to go to the pistol silhouette range today but when it's in the teens with the wind blowing no thanks!

Btw, Thanks for explaining why they quit making Patriots. That does make sense. Do you have any idea how much they sold for new?

Underdog2264

Well i made it to the range and managed to get off about 30 rounds with the Patriot. I found an interesting quirk. We have 2 patriots, mine is an early model, ser# 8798 and hers is newer ser# 23016. With hers the 20gr 440/17 worked quite well, 1 1/4 inch at 25yd. However mine shot 3 1/2 with the same load. I went up to the old 27gr 440/17 and it came back into the 1 inch group. Hers was about the same, 1 1/2 or so. I have no idea why, other than speculation, my barrel may be more worn or they may have changed the specs. Who knows, but it goes to show every one is unique. (I re-measured the patches I cut and they came out from .016 to .018 so I am calling them .017) At any rate I had a ball shooting and I guess that is all that matters., and now I'm chomping at the bit for the next rendezvous in January so we can shoot them together again.
Thompson officially ended production in 1987 on the Patriot and the last retail price was $ 235.00 but you could buy them for around $199.00

Oregunner

I'm glad you had fun shooting, since it was my fault & all. :)Interesting that the newer one liked that load & the older one wanted the ball going faster. Mine is #21160 & the bore looks factory new. I wonder if the early ones maybe had a different twist? Probably one of those little 'gun mysteries' we all love to kick around.

I put the calipers on the patches I picked up the other day. The ones that are supposed to be .015 are closer to .017 & the ones that are supposed to be .018 are closer to .016. The .015's (really .017) are white & unlubed. I was using them with Hoppes ##9-Plus for patch lube the first time out. Shot like sour owl badoogie. The pillow ticking ones it likes so much (that are supposed to be .018) are actually .016. They're harder to load, but that could be because the prelubed ticking was very cold & stiff. The ticking is much stiffer regardless, as well as stronger. Of the two patches I picked up, the ticking could probably be used again (not that I would). It was slightly discolored but otherwise good as new from all appearances. The white one that was lubed with #9-Plus is a little frayed around the edges. These are both T/C patches. I measured new patches as well & got the same results. In any case it likes ticking, I'll feed it ticking. I bought another package tonight. Next time I heat up my shop I'll measure some from the new package. I'm curious to see if they're the same. The ones I used last time was the last package off the rack when I bought 'em. They said they were going to send in a new order so the ones I got tonight were from a new batch. I also looked at the price when I got home. From now on I'll buy my patches at the yard goods store! Eight cents apiece for a little circle of pillowcase with some slickum on it? Yeoowwie!

Have fun at the next rendezvous!

Underdog2264

I am VERY familiar with the Yeoowwie factor. Back when I shot my first muzzleloader you could buy a can of 2f and a tin of caps for about $6.00, and that was at the local hardware store. Now it's around $35 and an hour drive. I can help with the patches though, Wal-Mart and many other craft stores sell pillow ticking by the yard. Take your calipers with you and measure a couple until you find the size you need. (yes you will get some strange looks)The last batch I bought cost 4.88 for a yard. As for cutting the patches, you may already have a punch or half round chisel that will fit the bill. If not Dixie gun works, log cabin shop, track of the wolf, midway usa all sell patch cutters for a reasonable price. I made mine from a piece of old black pipe and a cold chisel. As for the pre-lube part, after you have them cut, stack them in an old prescription bottle just a bit larger than the patch,( about 2/3 full) and fill the rest with bore butter ( or if you want to go real old school, Crisco and some teaberry or cedar oil) Put the bottle out in the sun or in a warm place that won't melt the bottle, and in a few hours you will have your home made pre-lube patches. It sounds like a lot of work, but after you get your method down it takes no time at all. I cut patches to kill time in the shop, much better that watching glue dry or barrels cool. If i had to guess, I figure it costs me about .25 per 100. It's a drop in the bucket but I have made my own patches bullets and caps for quite a few years and I figure it has paid for at least one gun, plus for me it ads to the mystique of the muzzleloading sport. Not to mention the fact I'm a stubborn New Englander and you would have trouble dragging a pin out of my butt with a tractor[:D]

Oregunner

Good suggestions, thanks. In the future I'll make my own patches too. I can make a punch easily enough. I just pre-lubed some plain white patches for my Hawken with Bore Butter the other night. The Hawken likes the white patches, at least it did with the Hoppes #9Plus. I put a dab of Bore Butter on each one & stacked 'em on top each other until I had a few dozen in a pile, then I popped 'em in my shop microwave for a few seconds. That did the trick pretty well. I'd be long time waiting for the sun to warm 'em up, it's been below freezing here most of the time for weeks.

Underdog2264

I may have found the reason for the differential in performance between old and newer Patriots. I was speaking to an old gunsmith who restores and builds BP guns, he told me that they changed the bore in the powder chamber after the second year. Something about pressures and muzzle velocity. Not sure what it all means but that could be the answer.

Oregunner

Entirely possible. I can feel a definite edge in the chamber of mine with the ramrod I made. I used an empty .357 case for an end & the edge of the rim catches on a very noticeable edge down in there when the gun is empty. Perhaps yours is slightly deeper & needs a bit more powder to fill it so the patched ball doesn't go in past the rifling. Maybe you could shoot both loads & compare patches? If the patched ball goes in past the rifling it might be damaged coming back out. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. I'll check mine tomorrow & let you know how deep the chamber is below the step. I'm hoping it warms up tomorrow so I can do a little shooting.

Oregunner

I did a little shooting today. This gun really likes the ticking patches & it does not like the white cotton ones. Here is the first three shot target (I hope) using the ticking. It measured .88"



http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003467970276626482


Here is the very next target I shot, only this time with the white cotton patch, same Bore Butter lube-



http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003461163547028101

I put one of the patches on the target when I scanned it. It is semi-burned through in the center with a very threadbare ring around the ball. The ticking patches still look usable. I tried your 27 grain load with the ticking & the group looked a lot like the white cotton patch load. Oh yeah, I tried to measure the distance from the breech plug to the beginning of the rifling & it turns out there is barely enough room to get the rim of a .357 case in it so it's more of a shallow ring than a chamber.

I hope these pix work.

I'll try again.

Underdog2264

Well I tried to get out but the weather had other ideas, 36deg. and a 15 - 20 mph wind. Last time I shot in that kind of wind I was catching patches with my teeth. [:D] Very impressive shooting ! What distance are you shooting from ? It looks like you have it dialed in. The patch looks almost perfect, just the tinniest bit tight, but with the ticking it is better, or rather looser?. Now my curiosity is tickled, I am going to take both Patriots to my gunsmith. She has a bore scope camera that will tell the tail. If I can I will post pictures.

Oregunner

Oops, sorry, the range is written on the first target but I see it's illegible in the scan. It was 25 yards according to my rangefinder. That was the first group I shot & as it turned out it was the best of three with that load. It measured .88" as best I could tell with my calipers. The second one (shot right after the 'white patch' load, third in the string) looked very much like the group I posted the other day. Just over an inch, only this one was more centered. The last group with that load was two in the middle & one low left flyer that was probably pilot error, the light was going fast.

Btw, since the first good three shot group was a little left, this time I moved the rear sight an eighth of a turn right. Apparently that was about right.

That patch in the picture is actually *shot* (har! sorry, I couldn't help it). Hard to tell in that picture but if I hold it up to the light I can see right through it in the middle. It's really threadbare. All the fuzz is gone between the fibers & it looks slightly scorched in the center. Where the patch met the rifling it's actually cut in spots. I think the material is just too flimsy. I didn't load it quite the same for the 'white patch' load as I did first time out when it shot so poorly. This time I used Bore Butter & it did much better than the first time (3" group compared to 5 or 6" +/- the first time), although still not anywhere near as good as with the ticking/Bore Butter. The first time I lubed the patches with Hoppes#9Plus (VERY old bottle, it's actually glass). Some of those patches were shredded around the edges.

The white patches are marked .015" but they measure .016"-.017". With Bore Butter they slide in there slick as you please. Don't shoot worth a hoot but they're easy to load. The ticking patches are marked .018" but they're closer to .016". Still, they're quite a bit harder to start than the white ones. They're much stiffer & a *lot* tougher. Every one I've found looked like it could be used again. I have to thump the short starter a good lick to get it in there but that's ok.

Since it is rather hard to load with the factory ramrod I made a set of ramrods for loading. They're made of fiberglass & have a 4" piece of 1" dowel for a T handle & a .357 magnum case on the other end. (Of course) I made them the night before I read that fiberglass is tough on the rifling so I wrapped 'em with black tape. So far they're fine. I have one that is long enough to take the ball from where the short starter leaves it a few inches down to about 3" from the bottom. Then I use the longer one to seat the ball. They both fit in the rack I use for loading so they're always handy. I'll have to take a picture of that gun carry/loading rack. Rube Goldberg would be proud to see it but it works pretty good.

I'm interested in hearing what your gunsmith has to say. I hope you can get pictures. These are interesting pistols. I am more impressed with the accuracy all the time. This gun will shoot right with my custom .45LC Contender barrel. At least at 25 yards.