In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Flintlock frizzens
PA Shootist
Member Posts: 692 ✭✭✭
I am looking to improve the spark generation on my Traditions .50 caliber Pennsylvania-style flintlock. The frizzen seemed to be soft; the flint appeared to have worn through the couple thousandths deep hard surface and was scratching across soft steel. No matter what flints I tried, sparks were weak. When the rifle was new it worked far better. So I got a can of Kasenit from Brownell's, and re-hardened the frizzen according to the directions.
The spark is a bit better, but still relatively weak. I routinely use a $2.00 spark lighter in my shop for lighting an oxy-acetylene torch. Its sparks are fat and healthy in abundance. If only my flintlock could be half as good! The cheap torch sparklighter uses a small flint scratched across a file surface. What about making a file-like surface on the frizzen before hardening? Anyone have any thoughts or experience? Or any other ways to get a fat spark and reliable ignition?
The spark is a bit better, but still relatively weak. I routinely use a $2.00 spark lighter in my shop for lighting an oxy-acetylene torch. Its sparks are fat and healthy in abundance. If only my flintlock could be half as good! The cheap torch sparklighter uses a small flint scratched across a file surface. What about making a file-like surface on the frizzen before hardening? Anyone have any thoughts or experience? Or any other ways to get a fat spark and reliable ignition?
Comments
I've hardened quite a few frizzens over the years (I build muzzleloaders, assembling my own locks from either kits or aftermarket parts/castings, so hardening frizzens, sears, tumblers, etc. goes with the territory) and kasenit can be a hit-and-miss deal. This is particularly true on a piece of steel that has already been hardened once. My experience with the Traditions/CVA line of locks has always been that their hardening wasn't an issue so much as their size (small frizzen plus small flint equals relatively small amount of sparks). For their size, though, with properly-fitting flints, they sparked well enough, as you say yours did in the beginning.
I would suspect you got a frizzen that simply wasn't heat-treated as well in the beginning, with premature wear and failure the result. Have you tried contacting Traditions about a replacement? I'd do a search on the brand and get on their website, go that route. I know several different outfits used to sell replacement lock parts for the Traditions/CVA line (Dixie Gun Works still does, but mainly only the springs and internal parts, no hammers or frizzens). I'd be surprised if Traditions themselves couldn't help you out.
Two other options: one of the RPL locks made by L&R (very expensive and, while the lockplate itself will fit, the internal parts require you to modify the inletting of your lock mortice), or find a used lock on some gun/gun parts auction site (can't for the life of me think of one offhand....[;)]). If none are being offered at the moment, try the "want ads" forum at the bottom of the menu you used to get here -- someone might have something they didn't even know they wanted to sell until you brought it up.
Don't pass up a good CVA flintlock, if you find one -- the lockplates of the two brands are almost identical and the internal parts are actually interchangeable. A tiny bit of scraping would likely be all that was required to fit a CVA lock to your rifle. Be careful you buy one with the fly in the tumbler; many of the lower-grade CVA (and Traditions) locks have no fly in the tumbler and won't work reliably with set triggers.
I have a Traditions cap and ball pistol, made by Pietta.
The main spring broke. I contacted the Traditions 800 number.
They sent me a new spring for free, with free shipping. They didn't ask serial number, where or when I had bought the gun, nothing. All they asked for was my name and address.
I imagine, as mongrel says, they will replace your frizzen for free.
Let us know how the new steel works out.
Did you smooth the old frizzen before re-hardening it? Remember this is going to happen again, you either need to figure out how to fix your frizzens, or order lots of extras. The factory color case hardening on them is simply too thin to shoot a lot, but is good enough for the PA deer hunter who shoots a few times a year.
I was reading a book about the old-timers' process for case hardening, using variously leather and ground bone to provide the carbon, etc. I might even try that sometime just to see. One thing for sure, the old-timers in the hay day of the flintlock had something better than what I have used and experienced with this Traditions and a Thompson-Center Hawken flinter that I also have. Better flints? Better hardened steel frizzens? As I stated in my original post, I am aware of the intense and prolific spark generation of an inexpensive flint spark lighter for lighting an oxy-acetylene torch. I would think that with some thought and attention to detail, the flint and frizzen of a rifle could do as well.
Your TC Hawken came with a lifetime warranty on that lock - doesn't matter if you bought it new, used, or found it in the woods. And if it is an older model, they've completely redesigned the lock to improve frizzen quality, the angle that the flint will strike the frizzen and a few other things. In short, they've completely changed the lock geometry and the new-style locks work. If I were you, I'd contact their customer service department - http://www.tcarms.com/customerService/ - and tell them of your problems. Typically, they send a replacement lock at no charge. Good luck.
Got a new replacement frizzen today in the mail from Traditions. And it has a slight problem: the geometry of the part of the frizzen that covers the pan is off a little bit, so that it won't close tightly. With the front end of the frizzen down tightly, the aft end of the frizzen is open about 1/32", resulting in no seal around the edges. The priming powder would fall out easily, etc. There is though plenty of spark in that metal from the flint; copious fat sparks tumble all around when the hammer falls. Just what I was hoping to see! So I am in a dilemma. A small bend of the frizzen just ahead of the flat would align it to seat the flat onto the pan. I wouldn't want to try to bend it, being hardened steel it might likely break instead of bend when cold. I don't want to heat it and risk destroying the hardening of the steel. I suppose I'll call Traditions on Monday and see what they have to say. Any other suggestions?
You're correct that, your new frizzen being hardened, it would probably snap rather than bend.
Having fitted a number of frizzens to pans before, and being used to the process, I'd find a candle that produces a fair amount of soot, or buy a cheap tube of lipstick. You can buy inletting black for the process I'm about to describe, but that would mean another wait for the stuff to come through the mail -- and you're probably a little bit sick of waiting, at this point.
If you can get soot from the candle or the lipstick on the underside of the frizzen, where it covers the pan, without removing it from the lock, great. Otherwise remove it, get the metal sooty or lipsticked (lipstuck?), then carefully replace it on the lock, with the frizzen spring in place (the upward pressure of the frizzen spring can affect precisely how the frizzen sits on the pan, so you need it in place to assure that the frizzen will be correct when the lock is actually in use). Close the frizzen, then open it. There should be soot or lipstick marking the forward portion of the rim of the pan. VERY CAREFULLY, taking your time, use a small, flat file to begin removing metal where it's been marked by the frizzen. Don't take much off -- you can always remove more, but putting it back once it's been filed off requires something approaching divine intervention. Re-soot or re-lipstick the frizzen, close it over the pan again, repeat the filing process as necessary. The object is to end up with the rim of the pan still perfectly flat, but ever-so-slightly re-angled to accomodate the new frizzen. Success has been achieved when the soot or lipstick marks the whole rim of the pan, evenly, meaning equal pressure from the frizzen all the way around.
I would highly recommend a brand-new file for this process, as the outer surfaces of Spanish-made locks can sometimes be harder than you'd expect and a new file is easier to control and cut cleanly with.
Simply buying a new frizzen and screwing it in place, and having it fit perfectly, doesn't often happen. This tiny bit of hand fitting is usually necessary, though in many cases the mis-fit isn't that much and the gun's owner either doesn't notice or just lives with it.
I doubt Traditions will have any suggestions, other than to either order several more frizzens and hope one fits right, or to send the lock to them (I don't know how good they are about this sort of service). In either case you're looking at spending more $$$. If you trust yourself to be patient and steady with the file, you can fit the parts yourself and finally be ready to go out and burn some powder.
Good luck.
I can see that the geometry of the whole lock is changed some from the original with this replacement frizzen, the striking surface at a slightly steeper angler to the flint in general. It was also mentioned that T-C has changed their lock design and geometry some from their original, and newer and better might be obtainable there also. I believe I will investigate that avenue. My T-C was bought if I remember correctly late '70's. It was never any great shucks for fast reliable spark generation and ignition, no matter the type of flints, etc. It added to my skepticism about flintlock ignitions in general, even though everything I read seemed to imply the flintlocks of old were pretty reliable. They put meat on the table regularly, and went to war. Maybe a lot has been forgotten over the years!
One last tip: If the flints you're using now don't do this, experiment with different types until you find a particular shape that clamps into the jaws of the cock with the point of the flint aimed directly into the center of the pan when the cock is down and the frizzen open. This will cause the bulk of your sparks to fall, you guessed it, directly into the center of the pan, optimizing your ignition. This is important even on big locks (the mechanism on my 1760's-styled reproduction of a Southern rifle is 5 3/4" long, which for the time period was medium-sized), and critical on the smaller ones. And, select a size of flint that, when the lock is at half-cock and the frizzen closed, the point of the flint is almost but not quite touching the face of the frizzen. This maximizes the area over which the flint scrapes the steel, in turn increasing spark generation and the reliability of your ignition.
I'd also try to find English knapped flints that work well. These have the advantage of being able to be sharpened by re-knapping. If you find a shape (being handmade, each one is different) that works well with your lock, do a close drawing of its profile and send off an order for several dozen to Track Of The Wolf or a similar outfit. They understand the pickiness of flint shooters and will send you the shape of flint you request. Or, hit one of the rendezvous or shoots that, being from PA, I suspect you won't have any trouble finding somewhere close to where you live, and spend awhile sorting through the flints the various vendors will carry there.
You're right about the reliability of the flint system. In one form or another it was state-of-the-art in the shooting world for some 300 years (beginning with the snaphances and miquelets of the mid-16th century and ending only when the percussion system and those damned little caps became common enough you could get them pretty much anywhere, sometime in the mid-19th century). This wasn't due to the military forces and hunters of the world being willing or forced to settle on a sub-standard system. They just understood in those days what too many shooters today have forgotten or find it too inconvenient to put into practice -- you have to do your part to keep them up and running right. And, when you do, they work. Extremely well. The ground is full of the bones and dust of men who would wish this weren't the case, if they were in any condition to wish at all....
Enjoy!