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Revolver crossfire prevention???
taperloc
Member Posts: 420 ✭✭✭
I have a replica, 1851, Colt Navy, 36 cal. I use 25 gr. of FFFG. and a .375" round ball. The pistol is quite accurate with this loading. I use a heavy chassis grease over each ball to prevent crossfire, it is very messy.
Is there a wax or wad of some kind that I can use to eliminate the use of the grease?
If so, where can I purchase it?
If I use a conical bullet instead of a ball, do I still need a "plug" of some kind to prevent crossfire?
Is there a wax or wad of some kind that I can use to eliminate the use of the grease?
If so, where can I purchase it?
If I use a conical bullet instead of a ball, do I still need a "plug" of some kind to prevent crossfire?
Comments
Is there a wax or wad of some kind that I can use to eliminate the use of the grease? Yes, There are a number of sources for lubed wads that will eliminate the need for over the ball grease. Cabelas carries one brand, Wonder Wads are available most places BP supplies are sold. But, Wonder wads aint cheap. Cheaper sources of prelubed wads are are www.bpstuffllc.com and www.buffaloarms.com . Buffalo Arms also sells dry wads that you can lube yourself. Lube formulas come in many guises; but combinations of two or more of the following ingredients are used. Beeswax, parrafin, tallow, crisco, bore butter, wonder lube, and olive oil. I use a 75%/25% mix of beeswax & Bore Butter. A fellow CAS shooter uses a beeswax/parrafin/tallow mix
If so, where can I purchase it? See previous.
If I use a conical bullet instead of a ball, do I still need a "plug" of some kind to prevent crossfire? I use wads with conicals and round balls; but, not to prevent chainfires.
Taperloc. The source of chain fires - or Crossfire as you call it - is a debate that rages on these BP forums from time to time. IMNSHO chain fires can only be caused at the chamber mouth by by ill fitting or deformed balls. They are more often casued by ill fitting or missing caps. Primary reason using over the ball grease or lubed wads is to prevent tinning of the barrel and keeping the fouling soft.
My experience with Crisco.
When I first started shooting BP revolvers, I experienced "crossfire" with a .44 1860 Colt Army replica. Five cylinders went off. Luckily, the only cylinder that didn't fire was the one directly inline with the frame. I didn't realize what had happened; it was quite a wallop.
We were using Crisco on a hot day. The Crisco melted. I had to go back to the car and hold the Crisco can in front of the A/C vent to get it back to a solid state before we could continue shooting.
Thanks to all for the info.
Taperloc.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3689&osCsid=eacf9af7904e9a6412a3994c155828dd
Mutton tallow is hard to come by, so this is a great source.
I use Old Zip as is for lubing the patches on my Hawken.
For wads for the cap and ball revolver, take 2 parts Old Zip and one part paraffin. Maybe 2 teaspoons Old Zip and one teaspoon paraffin, you won't need much.
Buy a bag of 100 pre lubed wads. These wads are lightly lubed.
Put the Old Zip/paraffin in a bowl and melt in the microwave.
Put all 100 wads in there and sop up the liquid.
Now you have some well lubed wads for your revolver that won't melt in warm weather.
Use these on top of the powder, and under the ball.
This will prevent chain fire from the front of the cylinder.
Also will keep the revolver well lubed so that you can get more shots off before fouling gunks it up.
If you are in a cool climate, you could use straight Old Zip.
One little can will last a long time, and it won't go rancid either.
I have a can that I have had for 22 years, still good as new.
The bottom line from all the tests that we ran confirmed exactly what the old timer told us. We were able to intentionally create multiple discharges by three different methods: (1) By leaving a cap off the nipple of a loaded chamber that was adjacent to the one being fired. (2) By using balls or conicals that were slightly under chamber diameter, and (3) By using so small a powder charge that the ram did not compress the powder with the bullet. If the ball was pure lead (soft) and we stacked hard wads between it and the powder so that the ram pressed down hard that usually solved the problem.
With the undersize balls or conicals, we didn't have a lot of luck eliminating multiples by using over the bullet lubes. Soft lubes seemed to be useless since the blast through the cylinder to barrel gap would usually blow the lube away. Harder wax-like lubes fared a little better but not a lot.
Thank you for your excellent info on my "cross-fire" question. It is exactly what I was looking for.
I would appreciate it if you would answer a few additional questions.
How do you go about pinching a primer cap? Do you squeeze it a little with your fingers?
In your tests, did you try a paraffin wax over the ball?
What I want to do is to be able to carry the revolver and not worry about any mess.
Being one of those old timers...I'll tell ya, yep. Pinch um between the fingers. I use 1 CCI No 11's on my main rifles and the pistols. Just a little squeeze will hold um on.
And yep, I've been using wax over the the load for nearly 40 years. But ONLY when I'm loading it to leave it loaded for several days of hunting. I also seal around the cap with candle wax for the same reason. Melted block Paraffin wax will work, but a birthday candle is easier. Just a few drops and scrape off the excess so the hammer hits the cap properly. Works fine. Just don't get carried away and try to fill the cylinders. You should at least be able to see the ball when you're done. And you have to do the caps if you intend to leave it loaded.
Just a note on chain/cross fire. I have SEEN chain fires happen! Got sprayed at the range from my buddies brand new 1975 Stainless Ruger using rounds made for the bigger Ruger cylinder and felt wades they sold back in the 70's. No missing caps, no mismatched ammo, no light loads...it just happened. Probably shot 50 times that day before it happened and then...ba,ba,boom! He went right back to Crisco. Just a good thing it was a Ruger.
I've seen examples in gun shops of destroyed cylinders, bent and broken Colt style strapless frames of older guns because of chain fire. As a matter of fact, I think it was a Myth Busters program a couple months ago or maybe it was a show on one of the outdoor channels, but they actually had an inadvertent chain fire. They included it it in the show just to show the danger!
Chain fire does happen. But I've never had one in nearly 40 years. That's because when I was shown an exploded cylinder, told it could happen and that I should seal over the ball to prevent it by the guy that sold me the gun...I did.
From the first shot I ever made to today. Crisco is all I've ever used for just shooting. 10's of thousands of rounds and buckets of Crisco. Doesn't take much. Just a little dab smeared around the edge where the ball meets the cylinder. Don't have to cover the whole thing.
It doesn't have to be Crisco. Other guys use a lot of different stuff, like the things you've seen suggested here and never had a problem. But the point is....USE SOMETHING to make sure it doesn't happen. It doesn't take but 1 time to turn a great day of shooting into a trip to the emergency room for you or the guy next to you!
Just my 2 cents on chain fire.
1. Ensure the balls/conicals you are using have no flaws and are a good tight fit.
2. Ensure your caps are a tight fit on the nipple without pinching. Pinching them to fit still leaves gaps around the edge that will allow a chainfire.
I've shot C&Bs off and on for the better part of 40 years and have seen numberous chain fires happen. Sometimes, it is hard to determine just what went wrong to allow one to happen cause the ball has gone down range and the cap has exploded or fell off after the fact. Most times it has been because one of the two previously mentioned rules (if you will) was ignored. A fellow CAS member was having chain fire troubles at a match a few years ago with an older 1860 Army, as many as 2 sympathetic ignitions on a cylinder. His cast balls weren't all that good, and his caps didn't fit the nipples very well. After insisting that he use my swaged balls, lubed wads & caps, the chain fires miraculously ceased. With all the problems he was having, there was never any spraying of lead that got anywhere near bystanders. The most that happened was a smear of lead on the wedge.
I've been shooting C&Bs almost exclusively in 3 to 4 CAS matches a month for going on 10 years. In that time, I've had one chainfire on a chamber that I failed to cap cause I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing at the loading table. The only indication on the pistol that it happened was a small spot of lead on the wedge.
I use .380 balls in my 36s; .454 balls in my 44s. I always use lubed wads over the powder and #10 Remington caps on Treso nipples. I have never used any sort of over the ball wax, grease, miracle lube, etc.
You might want to read this article about capping revolvers. It include a section about out of battery ignition (chainfires)
http://www.brimstonepistoleros.com/articles/capping.html
I doubt very seriously that a chainfire would cause an exploded cylinder or mangled arbor. Overcharging a weakened cylinder, smokeless powder, duplex load, or an air gap is a more likely cause IMHO.
FM
James Butler (Wild Bill) Hickok carried 2 1851 Colt Navy 36's.
He was after all nice enough to walk us around his facility and make recommendations for my first gun, tell us stories about the history of black powder and his 100 or so collectibles, point out the labels that said, "Destroyed by Smokeless Powder" or "Bent During Chain Fire" on the more than 20 examples of damaged and destroyed historical and replica hand and long guns he had collected over his more than 60 years. So calling the man a lier...well, it just seemed in bad taste!
And I don't know bystanders from biscuits about competition shooting. I'm just a guy that shoots for the love of it and to be a more efficient killer of game. But I dang sure know what hot lead feels like. If you don't...consider yourself lucky!
Me, I've never had a chain fire. Never load but 5 holes. Always pinch my caps. Always seal my cylinders. Never did like depending on luck. Usually runs out!
That's what some say, but you know...I never had a problem. I have had a problem with caps coming off from recoil, especially depending on the cap manufacturer. I use to use an inline caper. On several occasions early in my revolver experience I would pull back the hammer and let rip just to hear a click and on inspection find that the cap had come off. Started pinching the caps and never had the problem again. Of course I also use properly fitting caps and make sure I push um up good an snug on well maintained nipples. But I should have listened to the old boy that sold me the gun about that too.
And I've gotta say that the fact that I've never had a chain fire incident, even on uncapped and fully charged cylinders may say something about the actual cause of chain fire in the first place. However, not wanting to depend on just being lucky as the only reason for not getting a chain fire...I pinch the caps and push um on securely with my thumb. Just to make sure they don't come off. I'd rather risk a microscopic gap than an open nipple whole.
May be overkill, but it only takes a second to do.