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Unpatched Ball

mackcranemackcrane Member Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can you shoot an unpatched ball in a rifle, they aren't patched in a revolver? Also could use an over powder wad in a revolver? Thanks.

Comments

  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In a revolver they are pressed in to the cylinder, hard. They are held in place with that force. In rifles we typicly shoot .490 balls in a .500(.50 cal) rifle. The .010"-.015" patch holds the ball on the powder so it doesn't slide up and down the barrel. It also helps the ball grip the rifling as it is shot from the barrel. The patch also surves as a lubricate for the ball.

    Yes, you could shoot the ball with no patch. But, why would you want to?

    The wad, you need to be more specific with the question.
  • yoshmysteryoshmyster Member Posts: 19,554 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just sacrafice one of your old holey tighty whities for a patch [:D].
  • andrewsw16andrewsw16 Member Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yes. Some do use an overpowder wad in a c&b revolver. Personally, I don't. Powder, ball, and grease in that order works fine for me.
  • allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Many guys do use a wad on top of the ball in the cap and ball revolver.
    I have a bag of them and do use them sometimes.
    I have them well lubed up and they do help keep the fouling soft.

    As bambam has said the patch does several good things in the rifle.
    You can shoot the rifle pretty well without a patch and the pioneers were known to shoot an unpatched ball if they were in a jam, fighting the Redskins and they needed a fast second or third shot.

    After a few shots your barrel will gum up if you are not using the patch and of course accuracy and power suffer.
  • LilOsageLilOsage Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    As others have stated, shooting a ball without a patch is virtually absent of accuracy. Using a patched ball that results in a snug fit in the bore, with the least amount of ball deformation produces the most accurate combination.
  • andrewsw16andrewsw16 Member Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In the old 1971 movie "Man in the Wilderness" with Richard Harris, he is having to confront a bear at hand to hand (and then tooth to hand and body) range. [:D] He just dumps about two seconds worth of powder from his horn down the barrel, drops in a ball, taps the buttstock on the ground to seat it, then primes and fires. That was about the fastest reload I have ever seen. He didn't have to worry about accuracy at that range. It's amazing what you can do when you are motivated. [:D]
  • MMOMEQ-55MMOMEQ-55 Member Posts: 13,134
    edited November -1
    I use patches lubed with bore butter. I have tried about every recipe there is and bore butter works best for me. I get a cleaner bore and more shots between cleanings at the range.

    I can't remember the movie but a guy was reloading his flintlock and an indian was charging him. All he had time for was to load powder, ball and he still had the rod in the barrel when he shot the indian. Of course this was a movie and doubt if a rifle would withstand the pressure from a shot like this.
  • mackcranemackcrane Member Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I didn't know if the ball was tight enough to engage the rifling, if it would seal the gases off or not. I guess it would be too tight to try and load. Does anybody know a good ball and patch load for a T/C Renegade in 54 caliber that was made in the 1970s? Thanks for all the help.
  • LilOsageLilOsage Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mac:

    In my experience, every barrel bore is slightly different, thus you will hear, "My rifle likes this or that...."

    With each rifle that I've ever worked with, first it must have a highly polished before developing the load combination that produces the most consistent accuracy. Even after polishing to achieve the exact same bore condition, each rifle was still different.

    For what its worth, I've worked on a variety of used rifles that never achieved consistent accuracy. Fact: a rifle with pitted bore is an exercise doomed to fail, sure it will fire but so what.

    At present, the most accurate load for a patched ball in my rifle is 70gr Triple7, .535RB, .015 lubed pillow ticking patch and 11 CCI Mag cap.

    O'yes, you will hear that your rifle can handle up to 150gr of powder, but it won't be consistently accuracte. For the normal .54 T/C barrel length it is impossible to burn more than 70grs, but then some folks just like more flame and smoke.

    Hope this helps
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would try 60gr-90gr with a bore butter patch. You will have to find the ball and patch combo for you/your gun. Different ball sizes need different patch sizes. I use .490 ball and .010 patch in my .50 Hawkin. Some people use a thicker patch but it is must harder to load. It's your preference.
  • dandak1dandak1 Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Regarding your original question I too had wondered what might happen without a patch, but all I had heard was people just repeating what they have heard, so I decided to actually find out for myself and did some tests about 3 years ago with my 50 cal Hawken. Usually I use a .495 ball with a 0.010" patch on top of various charges of Pyrodex RS. For grins and giggles I tried several groups at 50 yards using just the ball rammed down on top of the powder WITHOUT a patch. I was VERY careful to make sure the ball did not roll forward after seating (airspace in a bp gun is a big no-no). Usual accuracy with a patched ball and the load I was using averaged 1 1/2" at 50 yards. Without a patch I was getting groups around 4 1/2" or so. Not bad really, considering what i expected and had heard. One thing, the bore got VERY dirty. I guess w/o the pressure building as it does with a patch the powder does not burn as clean. I use overpowder wads in a 3rd gen Colt 1851 navy all the time.
  • bambambambambambam Member Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think one thing that may have led to your problem with the barrel getting dirty was that gas was going past the ball and burning your balls[B)].....That sounded bad.lol

    I sometimes will put the powder in, ram the patch & ball with a jag/patch combo. When you pull the rod out the patch on your jag gets the big stuff out before your next shot, but your barrel is still fouled to maintain accuacy.


    quote:Originally posted by dandak1
    Regarding your original question I too had wondered what might happen without a patch, but all I had heard was people just repeating what they have heard, so I decided to actually find out for myself and did some tests about 3 years ago with my 50 cal Hawken. Usually I use a .495 ball with a 0.010" patch on top of various charges of Pyrodex RS. For grins and giggles I tried several groups at 50 yards using just the ball rammed down on top of the powder WITHOUT a patch. I was VERY careful to make sure the ball did not roll forward after seating (airspace in a bp gun is a big no-no). Usual accuracy with a patched ball and the load I was using averaged 1 1/2" at 50 yards. Without a patch I was getting groups around 4 1/2" or so. Not bad really, considering what i expected and had heard. One thing, the bore got VERY dirty. I guess w/o the pressure building as it does with a patch the powder does not burn as clean. I use overpowder wads in a 3rd gen Colt 1851 navy all the time.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 13,200
    edited November -1
    Original Colt Armies had oversized bores. If I recall correctly about .460". Black powder upsizes the soft lead balls to fit these bores and shoot accurately.
    That's why some old revolvers shoot well.
    I have a 45 cal percussion German Dueler that takes a 45-185 gr SWC soft lead bullet loosely down the bore.
    It's very accurate.
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