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This auction has some issues

drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,620 ✭✭✭✭
edited September 2020 in General Discussion



That aint an arm brace.




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Comments

  • chmechme Member Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭
    There is also a wee proplem with that forward grip as well.  1 hand- pistol.  2 hands- short barreled rifle.  
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  • Ricci.WrightRicci.Wright Member Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭✭
    The seller is in Washington State. May be legal for sale to BLM protesters. No I didn't !!!!  😬😬
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2020
    I didn't read anywhere in the listing where he claims it is a brace. "Tactical CZ scorpion folding stock", nothing misleading there, although it is a SBR and not a pistol. The way to sell it would be to remove all of the SBR accouterments and add the wording All NFA Rules Apply. At $1600 it is actually a good deal. Buy it, register it on a Form 1 and then shoot it as a pistol until the tax stamp arrives.
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  • shootuadealshootuadeal Member Posts: 5,304 ✭✭✭✭
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11215221#Comment_11215221

    He Has it listed as a semi auto pistol, not under NFA items.

    Yes, he needs to take that stock off ASAP.

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  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,539 ✭✭✭✭
    Someone could get stung with that thing... get it..ha ha ..
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  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,620 ✭✭✭✭
    I messaged him. Will see what he says.

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  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,620 ✭✭✭✭
    Emailed him:
    Hey Bud,
    Unless this CZ of yours is registered as a NFA SBR you currently have an illegal gun. You cant legally put a stock and forward grip on a pistol without doing a Form 1 with the ATF.  If I were you, I'd take this auction down, take the stock and foregrip off, take a picture of it with those items off to the side and relist it.
    Right now you're looking at trouble.
    Regards,

    His response:
    This item is solely sold as a pistol and will be shipped that way. The vertical grip and stock will be shipped separately. It is up to buyer to have form 1 to apply furniture. I have confirmed this with the atf since this gun has always been pistol. Thank you for your concern


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  • jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 26,292 ******
    Men in cheap suits: “Where’d you get this gun, boy?”

    Buyer: “ I bought it from Raidernationjustwin in Edmunds, Washington.”
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  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 40,253 ***** Forums Admin
    jimdeere said:
    Men in cheap suits: “Where’d you get this gun, boy?”

    Buyer: “ I bought it from Raidernationjustwin in Edmunds, Washington.”
    Yep. 

    MiCS: Oh you did, did you?
    Buyer: Yep, I was looking for a pistol, and he said this was a pistol.
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2020
    drobs said:
    Emailed him:
    Hey Bud,
    Unless this CZ of yours is registered as a NFA SBR you currently have an illegal gun. You cant legally put a stock and forward grip on a pistol without doing a Form 1 with the ATF.  If I were you, I'd take this auction down, take the stock and foregrip off, take a picture of it with those items off to the side and relist it.
    Right now you're looking at trouble.
    Regards,

    His response:
    This item is solely sold as a pistol and will be shipped that way. The vertical grip and stock will be shipped separately. It is up to buyer to have form 1 to apply furniture. I have confirmed this with the atf since this gun has always been pistol. Thank you for your concern


    He's doing it right with the shipping, but in the meantime the firearm shown in the listing is a SBR, or without the stock and only the vertical hand grip, it is Any Other Weapon. The Thompson Center court case ruled that simply possessing  a pistol and a shoulder stock does not automatically mean that the stock will be used to manufacture a SBR. Well, he has proven he intended to do just that.

    Dan, I would waste any more time on him. It's a lost cause.
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  • redneckandyredneckandy Member Posts: 9,716 ✭✭✭✭
    I had a local guy trying to sell me a couple of AR's recently. He sent me a pic of em and one was a generic pistol build but the other was a SBR. Asked em if he had a stamp for the SBR and he had no clue what that meant. Explained to him how without one that rifle was very illegal. His response was "eff em". So I passed on that deal.
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  • jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 26,292 ******
    It’s all kinda silly if you think about it.
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  • US Military GuyUS Military Guy Member Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭✭
    jimdeere said:
    It’s all kinda silly if you think about it.
    Of course, the key is to NOT think about it.

    If you are the government, do what you want - and don't think about it.

    If you are "The People", do what they say - and don't think about it.
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  • GrasshopperGrasshopper Member Posts: 17,047 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, it is silly. BB guns requiring an FFL, a pistol has a grip and stock on it, that's a SBR, or whatever. Yes, the BATF has many laws that really don't make any sense. Will they ever be changed, most likely not because not enough people who care to make a noise or I should say politicians. After all the world is being wiped out by covid and global warming or heating, something  like that.
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  • chmechme Member Posts: 1,471 ✭✭✭✭
    There are those that THINK they decided "I don't like that law- I'll just ignore it."  Unless I share DNA with that person, if they are persistent in their stupidity, it is NOT my job to mend their ways for them.  
    Someone like the seller- I would tell him once, as a courtesy to any fellow human.  "Watch your step- there's a loose board on the stairs."  Now- if he wants to argue that it does not look all that loose, and he does not see a good reason that steps are this high and not that high, and nobody tells HIM what to watch.... my response is "Have a great day"- and move on down the road.  

    But when the guys in the cheap suits show up and arrest him, using his OWN photos as evidence, I WILL reserve the right to laugh at his dumb *.  
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  • toad67toad67 Member Posts: 13,008 ✭✭✭✭
    You can tell a kid not to touch the stove because it's hot, they never really believe you until they get burned.... some lessons just need to be learned on your own.
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  • scooterdriverscooterdriver Member Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭✭
    NR buyer (registered on 9/9/2020...when he placed his first bid for this listing) hit the BuyNow! for $2100. Luck to both parties.
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  • Ricci.WrightRicci.Wright Member Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭✭
    Damn!! he could have bought a case of 9mm ammo for that. 😁😁
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  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,179 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2020
    shootuadeal said:

    He Has it listed as a semi auto pistol, not under NFA items.

    Yes, he needs to take that stock off ASAP.


    Removing the stock doesn't quite fix things - constructive possession applies federally re SBR.  If he removes the forward grip, tosses the stock and gets a brace he'd be OK.  Simple to correct, hopefully.
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  • shootuadealshootuadeal Member Posts: 5,304 ✭✭✭✭
    https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11215629#Comment_11215629

    Constructive possession is a myth but non of that matters anyway as he put pictures of an illegal sbr on a public site for all to see.

    Like Mark stated, he provided the only evidence they would need with his pictures.

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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2020
    On the subject of myths: there is a misconception that a Class 3 dealer is allowed to purchase unregistered NFA weapons (such as the CZ) or to register NFA weapons tax free. This is incorrect. The Class 3 allows me to purchase registered NFA weapons without paying the $200 tax, but what we were looking at was an unregistered SBR. No one, no matter their FFL/SOT, could have legally purchased that firearm. Had it been knocked down (no stock and no vertical front grip) then yes, the buyer could have filed a Form 1, paid the $200 "making tax", had it properly registered and then assemble it.

    When it comes to building/making a NFA weapon (other than a MG, which is prohibited), as a dealer I am in no better shape than the rest of you guys. A Class 2 Manufacturer can make a NFA weapon without paying the $200 tax, but when I build a SBR AR I have to pony up the same $200 as everyone else. It is only when a purchase a registered NFA weapon for my business inventory that I'm "tax free." Later, if I decide to keep that "Tax free" weapon as my own...cut a check to the BATF for $200. 
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  • toad67toad67 Member Posts: 13,008 ✭✭✭✭
    mark christian said:
    On the subject of myths: there is a misconception that a Class 3 dealer is allowed to purchase unregistered NFA weapons (such as the CZ) or to register NFA weapons tax free. This is incorrect. The Class 3 allows me to purchase registered NFA weapons without paying the $200 tax, but what we were looking at was an unregistered SBR. No one, no matter their FFL/SOT, could have legally purchased that firearm. Had it been knocked down (no stock and no vertical front grip) then yes, the buyer could have filed a Form 1, paid the $200 "making tax", had it properly registered and then assemble it.
    For business transactions only, and not for your personal collection??
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  • mark christianmark christian Member Posts: 24,443 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2020
    When I want to acquire a registered NFA weapon, let's say a silencer, from another Class 3 dealer we use a Form 3: the tax exempt transfer and registration to a Special Occupational Tax Payer (SOT). There is no $200 tax involved in dealer-dealer transfers because we each pay a $500 yearly SOT. It also take just 2 days for the ATF to approve a From 3. If I later decide that I want the silencer for myself, then I have to file Form 4: the tax paid of an NFA firearm. This is the same form that a non licensee would use, and the $200 tax must be paid. When it comes to manufacturing a NFA weapon, if I want to build (say) a SBR AR, I have to file a Form 1 and pay the $200 tax, just like everyone else. Only a Class 2 Manufacturer may build NFA firearms without paying the tax. Regulations for manufacturing NFA's weapons are a LOT more involved than the regs for selling them. 

    Bottom line: there are no NFA weapons which are actually tax free. It's tax deferred at best. 

     
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  • toad67toad67 Member Posts: 13,008 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll stick with my C&R license........ ;)
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