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Hunting Deer ... SP or HP
jb4lcm
Member Posts: 119 ✭✭
What's your take on SP over HP for hunting deer?
I am using a Remington 700 in .223. My game plan is to use a hollow point for its high level of accuracy. Head shots.
Comments
Head shots? Are you kidding? That is not a good idea.
I have taken a couple of head shots over the years, but it isn't really a good idea, I've seen LOTS of injured deer due to poorly placed head shots. I also wouldn't use an HP out of the .223 for deer hunting.
Why not just use a 22? Don
Get a bigger gun and use a SP bullet designed for big game hunting. Will the .223 kill a deer? Absolutely, when the hunter does everything right and places his shots just so. As a hunter you owe it to your quarry to make their exit from this Earth as quick and clean as possible. Huntin' ain't just about killin', there's a whole lot of ethics involved, too.
I don't even hunt anymore, and I know better than a head shot for deer with either a SP or HP, Is this your first hunt?
From experience:
I've hunted with a 223 caliber rifles for several years. I have couple of Rem 700 223's that I can switch from High Velocity load to a Low velocity in seconds. (just changing the elev adjust on the scope) I use the LV load for hunting squirrels. It's velocity is between 22 mag and 22 long rifle, very accurate. Some 223's guns just don't like Big Game bullets above 50 gr for good accuracy and it's not all twist rate, it's the barrel itself.. (I reload and also glass bed rifles for max accuracy)
I do not really recommend a 223 for Deer size game, but I use a 60 gr nosler partition and one of my guns like the 70 gr speer. (60-70 grain bullets are considered heavy for caliber bullets for a 223 unless you have a fast twist barrel, faster than 1/10.
Also you need to check your Big game regulations for your state. Some states require at least a 55 gr bullet and no 223 pistols.
I do not care for HP bullets of any kind except for shooting crows and varmits.
A HP bullet out of a 223 will usually blow up (turns to small pieces of shrapnel) and not penetrate or does not leave an exit wound. I've also had HP bullets fail to penetrate on big game when used in the Larger caliber HV guns such a a 300 mag, 7mm Mag, and a 264 Win mag. The failure to penetrate or not exit is most likely to occur at close range, inside 100 yards when using a HV gun.
I use Nosler solids, partitions, Speer Grand Slam, the old Remington PSP is a good big game bullet and Hornady has some good big game bullets.
Do not expect the same degree of accuracy from a Big game bullet as from bullet designed for shooting paper or varmits. Big game bullets are for hunting big game, not shooting extreme accuracy at a big game animals picture on paper.
Their is an old BS saying that if a bullet stays inside an animal due to the bullets expansion/explosion vs exiting the animal it has used all it energy on the animal and their is no wasted energy.
I've wasted a lot more energy tracking animals shot with HP bullets and if no exit wound on a big game animal their is less of a blood trail. The majority of blood exits a animal from the exit wound, not the entry wound. (an exit wound makes for easier tracking the blood trail if the animal does a quick exit out of sight right at dark or into thick grassy brush)
Hey-Lighten up here guys! He just looking for some help.
Remington Core-lokts (if you can find them) 62 grain bullets. .223 caliber is not legal in Virginia, but I wouldn’t hesitate to use them in shots under 200 yards.
I appreciate the activity/responses, although, if you're gonna make a comment such as "not a good idea", I'd appreciate some more info as to WHY it's not a good idea. If you "know better" ... what do you know? If you're gonna make stupid suggestions like "why not just use a 22?" why don't you find something positive to say ... or just not say anything at all.
If you're gonna reply - please make it valuable. A learning experience. If all you got to say is negative and unhelpful, just move onto the next thread.
Okie - thanks for the time you took to share information.
I know a few guys that hunt whitetail with .223. They do seem to loose more deer which I am sure has to do with shot placement more than anything. I have hunted whitetail for over 50 years now and have taken them with bow, handgun, slug gun, muzzleloader and Rifle. (and front bumper)
The one thing I know for sure is it is my responsibility to harvest the animal in the most humane and ethical manner possible. Knowing and assessing my skill level comes into play also. Personally, I would not choose to hunt with a .223 and focus on headshots. I have rifles I can make shots like that, but too many things can come into play to possibly foul up that shot...I still get excited and my heart races even now when I get a shot at a whitetail....and I have missed or made bad shots when I am aiming for a Heart/Lung shot. Brush or other obstructions not seen in the scope etc will also change the outcome.
For me, there is nothing worse than having to try and find a wounded animal and not finding them at all...that has only happened once to me and that was enough.. For that reason, I will always use a rifle that allows me more options than just a head shot....JMHO....
If you are a good shot and take shots you are comfortable with head shots are fine. When deer numbers are reduced by contract the primary weapon is a .223 and the most common shot is a head shot.
We used to hunt a farm close to a town. It was surrounded by property owners that would not let you on their property to retrieve a dead deer. We used mostly head shots with a few neck shots.
Yes it's a bad idea to try questionable head shots such as at distance or on walking deer. Head shots on still deer within the appropriate abilities of the shooter IMO are fine.
If you are going to head shoot them I suggest you use what is most accurate out of your rifle and fits into the regulations of the state you are hunting in. If chest shots are also an option I would prefer the soft tip such as a 60gr nosler partition.
...You can hunt Mule, Whitetail deer in the State of Texas with an 30-06 ...just choose the best bullet weight for your expected distance...
... IF you want to destroy a lot of meat, use a HP, which is likely to explode into pieces...especially flying at the speeds of a .223...a SP works just FINE...I have known a LOT of Deer hunters, and never even heard of anyone using a .223...super fast and will probably bounce around in the body destroying meat, IF it stays in the body...a 30-30 or 30-06 will work fine on most anything you want to hunt...with a shot a tad behind the shoulder you get the heart and or lungs and still usually blows right thru 'em...
...I blew out EVERYTHING (heart, lungs) in the chest of one deer, and it ran 75 yards thru brush I HAD to back thru...you go poppin' a deer with a tiny .223 bullet traveling at the speeds of a .223...and good luck in ever finding it...of course IF you were to actually hit it in the head, thats a different story...I have known a LOT of hunters, and never have heard of anybody intentionally attempting a headshot...
...Headshots...get a 12x scope to HELP your chances...do you have any idea how small a deer head is at 100 yds or more?...Might try practicing shooting golf balls at 200 yds first...luck...
Barnes TSX. Weight/length of bullet in accordance with the twist of your rifle. Stay away from head shots, don't need a deer starving to death because someone blew its jaw off.
Headshots are fine if you can CONSISTENTLY hit the center of a target at whatever distance you choose to hunt. I have killed several whitetail deer with my ruger m77 223! I shoot the Hornady steel target HP ammo, have not lost a deer to that combo yet(it will happen one day) but I also don't shoot unless I'm 99% sure I can make a clean shot. I tend to aim at the base of the neck for 75 yards or closer then heart/lungs up to 150 yards. More than that and I take my 7mm-08 or 270. A 223 with Hornady steel target 55gr HP will drop a coyote DRT up to 325 yards!(been there done that). I have killed deer up to 110 yards DRT with heart shots(223) and they will also run sometimes too. I've seen people take a 300 win mag and wound more deer than ever! Caliber matters only to a degree, shot placement is KING after you know the rounds limitations!
Jimdeere ... my Rem 700 is a 1/12 twist so anything over 55gr isn't very stable - or so I've been told. I have not tried anything over 55gr. My shot/plan is 100 yards max.
Why? Two reasons:
I have read that the vast majority of kills are less than 100 yards.
And I am quite confident at 100 yards. I practice shooting at 1" diameter targets at 100 yards. My 55gr HP rounds are less than 7/8" from dead center. More than half are touching or inside the outer ring - which is 1/2" from dead center.
Today at 300 yards (I would never pull the trigger on an animal at 300 yards) I had 12 out of 14 inside a 3.5" circle. The other two were 3" and 4" from center of the bull. My bad on the trigger. That's with hollow points.
The Soft points I have shot - 3 different Federal rounds - two of which were Law Enforcement, Fiocchi & PMC, have variances that wander as much as 2" from dead center so I am not liking any of these SPs. That's why I am consider head shots with hollow point - I'm confident I can put it through it's eye or damn close as the typical deer eyeball is about 1.25" in diameter.
In Arizona - any centerfire rifle is legal to take deer or elk.
MY vote goes to the Barnes TSX or a Berger of some sort, as long as it is a hunting bullet.
As long as you are confident in your shot then go for it, especially at 100 yards or less. I would use a solid or a SP to get through the skull and assure a fast death for the critter if it moves a bit before impact. You are right in your comments about asking for help. A 1/12 twist is best with lighter bullets but you may be surprised by a 62 grain bullets accuracy potential. There are a lot of good hunting bullets on the market in the 55 Grain range that should serve you just fine. A 1/8" tighter group with HP's will not make a difference to the deer. Dead is dead.
Soft Point. Too many variables to answer 100 per cent. 223 will kill a deer. However what size deer? A big ol' Wisconsin Buck or a South Carolina 150 pounder. I suggest shooting the deer in the front quarter. They cannot run with 3 legs. Then if you have too finish it off with the .357 or so sidearm. Or just get a larger caliber
I have killed plenty of deer with a 223.You can read whatever or listen to whomever,but nothing works like experience.Most of the deer were taken with 55 grain SP.Headshots do work but they often thrash around for a while.The shot that worked best that I found was center of where the neck and shoulder meet.Decently accurate rifle,good rest and shoot the critter where it needs to be shot.No iffy shots.If you cant get a good shot,let it walk and the deer wins that day.
The "boiler room" is the area just behind the front leg. It is about 12 inches in diameter. Any shot in the boiler room will kill a deer.
The head shot is an area about 3 inches by 3 inches. Deer move their heads around all the time. The head shot is about 5 times harder to make than the boiler room shot. A bad head shot, you blow off the deer's lower jaw, and the poor animal spends 5 days starving to death in the forest before he dies.
You have an aggressive and "know it all" mentality and I don't think you are really on this forum to learn something about deer hunting, a subject on which you are vastly ignorant. God Help the poor deer in the area in which you are hunting.
There is a reason that in some states the .223 is illegal for deer.
You're right, across the country most big game is killed inside of 100 yards. For decades we used smooth bore 12ga single shots that you could only count on to 75 yards and some less than that. Amazingly we killed a lot of deer. Of course we were not hunting prairie states where a lot of deer are killed at distance. Terrain matters and I suggest for anybody , if they can, get the right equipment for the area you hunt. If you can't then the two choices are hunt within the limits of what you have or don't hunt at all. Myself, I'll hunt with what I have and make do if those are my two options.
I would try a few different bullets and see if they shoot accurate enough to hunt with. My choices would be the nosler partition or one of the solid copper bullets as they provide expansion and penetrate well. I'm sure there are other good bullets also. Years ago I used a Savage bolt action ,223 to hunt coyotes and other critters. I used the standard cup and core ammo from the local hardware store (Winchester IIRC) and it did just fine on the couple of deer I shot with it. They make much better stuff these days.
My friend in SD starts his young hunters off hunting deer and antelope with a Remington 700 in .223 and he uses a 60gr partition bullet, I don't know the twist rate in the rifle but it's a varmint edition with a fluted stainless barrel. It works fine and they are hunting mule deer as well as white tails. I gave my son a .223 wssm and he kills deer with the 64gr Winchester power points without issue.
Good luck and happy hunting
Knowing how far a deer can travel with its jaw hanging by a few ligaments and knowing the variables in the field, I wouldn't
recommend head shots but if you are dead set on it may the force be with you. By variables I mean wind, shadows, sudden
movement, unseen twigs. That is just the beginning of a long list.
Neck shots are the only ones in my book. Animal goes down & doesn't get up. Bullet goes right through, caliber not really a factor. No good meat lost. Learned it from an old elephant hunter who shot tens of thousands of game animals for safari meat.
In the Midwest, you don't have the option of denying a hunter retrieving game on your land. As long as it was legally shot, and ran into their land.
You cannot take a weapon with you, but asking permission is the right thing to do.
Here, if you are denied, a call to the game Warden, and he will bring his oppossum ticket book along. Blood trail your legal kill onto their property. Help you get it out, and write the land owner a ticket if they want to complain about it.
LOTS of great replies here! Thank you!
As I anticipated, there would be some positive and some negative opinions about hunting Deer with a .223.
To those of you who addressed my only question - HP or SP - thank you!
Oh God, don't ask on gb forums any question on specific caliber to kill deer, you will end up with 100 responses from people on their experiences on the caliber they shoot only and yours won't be right, lol.
.223 is a little light but does the trick just fine, my rather inexperienced daughter shoot a deer with her older brothers AR last year and it made it about 2 steps.
At the distance you should be killing a deer with a 223 it won't much matter between a sp and hp. If you are trying to push that distance further obviously a sp is better.
I tend to agree with A Griggs, and I disagree on no good meat in the neck. A good neck roast is hard to beat. If you dont want to prepare it that way, there is still a lot of good grinding meat there available with just a little bit of work.
Didn't mean to imply that the neck meat wasn't good - had a beer-braised neck roast recently & it was about the tastiest venison ever. I should have pointed out that a neck shot damages so little meat, it is hardly noticeable. BTW, best not to hit bone & no need for expanding bullets.
The killing factor in a small caliber bullet is speed and the ability to stay in one piece, all leads to shock.
I have taken deer with a .243, 80 grain Nosler ballistic tip, my son uses a 145 grain 280 ballistic tip.
We were hunting side by side. Two big does stepped into the clear, 150 yards out, one shot from each of us. Both neck shots and both deer looked like they had been hit with a bowling ball on the exit side of the wound. Both just as dead. Speed kills.
First deer I ever harvested did not bleed one drop of blood. Almost missed the critter, neck shot was all I had.
Shooting down hill a bit at close to 100 yards, 7mm magnum shooting 150 grain Partition, bullet entered the lowest part of the neck about halfway between head and shoulder. I never did find where the bullet exited until the taxidermist showed me what had happened.
The bulled had entered the neck , never hit flesh and traveled about 3 inches under the skin then exited. Shock or either it scared him to death.
That aint no fairy tale either.
If you're gonna reply - please make it valuable. A learning experience. If all you got to say is negative and unhelpful, just move onto the next thread.
Here's my .02 from experience. For deer, a hollow point is a terrible choice for any cartridge. My son shot a deer years ago with a hollow point and it didn't expand. He was a crack shot and put a good hit on the deer, but it was not recovered. I'm sure it died somewhere in a nearby thicket. No blood trail other than 2 or 3 drops where the deer was standing. Use a expanding soft point or a ballistic tip bullet. I also agree with others, head shots are not a good choice unless you are very close and even then, its risky. I have taken several deer with head shots and its awesome that you don't loase any meat and they don't run away, so no tracking involved. As I am getting older and my eyesight is declining, I don't take headshots anymore. Best of luck. Don
ive had to help more than one young hunter try to track a deer after a good shot with a 223 usually it's a super excited kid and they have an AR that shoots 1/2 Moa and dam if there is no blood, hair or anything. It's usually a late light shot and the biggest culprit is running to find the trophy a minute after a shot. The deer doesn't bleed out and gets up and runs.
If you are going to go for 223 I would buy some premium hornady ballistic tip and aim for the lungs. One time I shot a head shot on a doe and it was a disaster. I had to shoot at it with my 9mm pistol no closure , then ran out of bullets and then had to walk back to the truck for another mag and then came back to a whesing mess. It was a turning point from killing to being a humane hunter. Deer deserve respect and a swift end. If my shot is not a good one I just wait for the right shot
Made 1 bad shot on a doe yrs ago. Freehand shot with a heavy rifle at 300 yd. She moved just as I squeezed off and it hit her in the rear quarter. Doe went down. She is trying to crawl off and can't just moving around. I got there as quick as possible and finished her off with a head shot with the .40 pistol .
I would recommend a Barnes TSX that's all I use when hunting. For the .223 they come in 55 grain and 62 grain without stabilization issues. My Niece used my AR with the Barnes bullets to take a 45 Lb hog. One shot to the shoulder and it dropped right there. Neck or chest shots are my standard and I prefer the neck but I have shot some does in the head at close range. I would get the better bullets so you are not limited to a head shot. This keeps your options open to harvest an animal with the best shot available. Hunting usually takes a lot time and money don't go cheap on the ammo.
More good input - thank you!
.223 is a great prairie dog rifle round. .308 is a great deer rifle round. I would never mix the two.
.223 is fine for deer, but not with a head shot. That's not a good idea at all in any caliber. Just put it into the upper shoulder and it will drop where it stands. There's a big nerve there. The typical reaction is for the animal to jump up and tuck the legs together and then fall over dead. I've seen it countless times. At worst, you have the animal down with a broken shoulder and can dispatch it very quickly.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
Handgun and cast SWC.