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How good do some cheap rifles shoot
SCOUT5
Member Posts: 16,181 ✭✭✭✭
This guy posted a video showcasing Norma Whitetail ammo. He is shooting Cheap rifles, Ruger American, Weatherby Vanguard, and one Thompson. On the whole some pretty good groups when you factor in his setup, scopes, rifles, ammo. Eight different rifles.
Comments
When I was a kid you were lucky if the rifle you bought was capable of minute of deer sized groups. If you wanted decent accuracy you had to pay big bucks compared to what everyday hunting guns cost. Now that same decent accuracy is found in the cheapest models the manufacturers produce. Sometimes progress is a good thing.😀 Bob
Edit to add that a lot of introductory scopes are better today than the high priced scopes were when I started shooting!
For the money, I think it's hard to beat a Howa/Vanguard.
I tell people due to advances in machining technology today's $2000 O/U shotgun is equivalent to a 10K one from the distant past. You used to invest in accuracy and, within reason, get quite a bit of difference for your money. Now, you pay a lot for a little. A good trigger matters but some of these cheap rifles even have good triggers now. I know if you want to shoot accuracy competitions very little makes a large difference in score. But for hunting rifles where effectiveness matters more than score that little difference really doesn't make a difference unless you are stretching the last little bit out of your rifle.
Edit to add that a lot of introductory scopes are better today than the high priced scopes were when I started shooting!
That is a fact. I tell people that 100 dollar scope you worry may not do the job is probably better than anything your grandpa could buy back when. Yes, there is much better available but it will generally do what you want to do.
I have one in 375 H&H and am pleased with it.
The vanguards i have owned and shot have all, with good factory ammo produced 1&1/2 to 2 inch 100 yard groups . The premium ammo cuts that by at least 1/ 2 to 3/ 4 inch. Selected handloades have done better when the accuracy gods have smiled on me .
I have managed to accumulate a lot of scopes over the last 50 years and the $200 dollar scopes of today are superior to the $500 dollar scopes I bought 20 years ago. I even still have one Unertl left that is on a Stevens Walnut Hill that optically really isn't that good compared to todays inexpensive scopes but I keep it because it is a period scope that goes with that rifle, besides Posa mounts are cool! 😀 Bob
My ''yard sale'' rifle is a good case in point. 7-8 Yrs ago l got a Used Rem 700 barreled action(No Bolt) in 223rem off GB for $165. Found a SA Rem bolt from forum member @$90. Bolt arrived, took it to Jay Jarrett. He tested with a go-nogo gage. Perfect fit. On another forum l found a used HS Precision HV stock. Bottom metal off GB and all fit perfectly. Shot ok. January 2021 Kasey has an auction for a used Jewell trigger. Mine now. Took Kasey's trigger and gun to Jay. He installed trigger, cut/recrowned barrel to 24''. Bedded action. Thing shoots like a Benchrest Gun🤗
Aside from the Howa's, I have seen incredible groups with the Savage Axis. Local GS has them on sale right now for $329. A few years ago, I grabbed one in 280 AI for less than 3 C-notes and with handloads would outshoot a friends 2k plus Cooper in the same cal.
From my many hours of range time, I see similar results with others SA Axis'.
As far as handguns, the Heritages and Highpoints will shoot just as good as Rugers, SWs, and Glocks.
My H&R/NEF Handi Rifle Ultra in .223 will shoot close to an inch at 100yds with a 200.00 Burris 4-16 scope. The entire package cost me about 400.00. That is shooting from bench/sandbags. The trigger is not great. If I can get a trigger job from Midwest Gun Works I expect to shoot inside an inch. That would bring the whole package to about 600.00.
I have a Howa Mini MK-X in 223...Was my go to varmint rifle until I built a 204 Ruger on a AR platform using a E.R Shaw 24" heavy stainless barrel...WOW!!!
Combat Vet VN
D.A.V Life Member
I picked up a Ruger American in .30-06 with a low end Zeiss Scope for 100.00 from a local gun shop. It had been in storage for an extended time and needed some minor work....Cleaned it up and remounted the scope with some better rings...
It will shoot 1" groups off a rest if I do my part...
Edit...at 100 yards..
Norma Whitetail stuff is just as good as the Hornady.
I have a Thompson Venture and a CVA Cascade that will out shoot the very high dollar rifle and then I have another Venture that struggles to get 1 1/2 groups
The Ruger American I have in 7.62x39 will shoot sub 1" easily.
Bought the grandson a Mossberg Patriot and it outshoots most of the rifles in my safe.
I think a lot of the improvement in accuracy has come about from improved ammunition quality. In the olden days, even in a rifle that was bedded, with a trigger job, and floated barrel, you had to handload ammo to get the best accuracy. I would spend a lot of time developing loads to find the right bullet / powder kind / powder weight / seating depth, etc. These days I find factory ammo (IF I can find any!) is very difficult to beat.
My reloading experience is limited to hand loaders for .35 Remington, and 38 special and a few shotgun shells. I've been meaning to get into reloading for several years and have acquired some equipment. A forum member has sent me some components and light a fire under me so I've been studying up.
So today I watched a video of a guy loading for a new Thompson rifle in 300 Winchester Magnum. A how to video and he was fairly detailed. His groups with the rifle where terrible with factory loads, several different brands. When he checked the throat of the chamber some of the factory loads where over 1/4" of the lands. He loaded some rounds as long as the magazine would allow and was still over 0.050 off the lands, some bullets quite a bit over but a lot closer than the factory stuff. He fired three good groups, 1/2-7/8" with the ones closes to the lands and the ones he had to set back opened up but not as bad as factory loads. The point is it made me wonder about the rifles I've had that didn't shoot well and factory tolerances. Some of those rifles may have shot well had I loaded for them.
So his cheap rifle was capable of god accuracy but was sent from the factory deficient as ammo loaded to SAMMI over all length shot like crap out of it. Like I said, makes me wonder about some of the rifles I've had that I sent down the road and about how lucky I've been with other that shot great.
Way back in about 1970, three of us on the ship decided to take advantage of a late deployment that would allow us to do a little deer hunting out behind Camp Pendleton. The one fellow had gone back to Minnesota for a quick leave and brought back a 700ADL in 243, still in the box. A steel Weaver and a couple of boxes of Rem. 87 g. I believe they were. I mounted the scope and ran out and sighted it in for him as he was on duty. Just pulled the bolt and did a coarse sight alignment. First 3 shot group was a cloverleaf about 4" high and left. Second group as a cloverleaf just on the edge of the black. Third group a cloverleaf about 2" above the black. All from a Target store rifle and factory shells. Never in my life believed a "dimestore" setup could shoot like that. I don't believe I've ever owned a rifle that shot that well.
Another note if I may , my son in law bought a browning x bolt 308 a few years ago ..I know it is above the price range we were talking about ... The first ammo we tried in it was Hornady 165 grain sst . Everything clustered into less than 3/4 inch . It has since become my go to ammo for testing . For years I used nosler ballistic tips.
Keep that fire burning Jasper!
TC Compass II is a surprise performer. I bought one in 6.5 C because it had a threaded muzzle and I wanted a center fire bolt action suppressor host. If I tell just how accurate it is, very few will believe me so I won't. What I will say is it's darned good for under $350.
I have multiple Howa/Wby Vanguards and all are really good except the 257 Wby. It's just too much of a good thing for that thin whippy barrel. It's a 400+ yard deer rifle but not a tack driver at any range.
IIRC the TC Compass II is the rifle being used in the above. He also had a 6.5C in that rifle that shot really well which is why he bought one in 300 win mag. it was interesting that the chamber throat was cut so long and how loading for it made a difference.
Ruger American Ranch in 350 Legend, 3x9 Burris 100 yards 3 shot groups off sand bags
said rifle from above using the Hornady 165gr FTX
1 shot about 80 yards out , drop in his tracks
It still has the price tag on the stock...😉
He might want to return it after season.
Looks like you found the round Redhawk.
I've seen some ugly ducking cheap rifles shoot excellent groups and vice versa.
I've seen some really pretty guns that shot groups so bad I said they were like being married to a really pretty woman that has a headache all time, just good for looks.
summary: I never know how good a group a rifle is going to shoot until I test such.
They all have differences even the same make, models and calibers.
I've found that some calibers are inherently more consistently accurate than others.
But if someone asks me what caliber I like the best?
I like all of them.
Like is too short to hunt with a ugly gun.
The HDY 165s are the ultimate bullet for the 350 legend. Built a carbine upper about a year ago and have tested practically every bullet and nothing comes close.
Best groups I could get with HDY 170s was about 2.5'' and anything less than 150 was about the same or worse. I am sticking with .355 bullets as they match my bore.
Fired a 10 shot group that could be covered by a quarter with the same 165s and Lil Gun powder.
I picked up a "no frills" mod. 200 Stevens in .223 & put a Weaver 2-10 scope on it. No tack driver, but it will do 1". On a side note: Years ago I decided to test various .223 ammo in several different rifles. Was surprised that the best all around ammo was yellow box Norinco fmj.
One of my friends son bought a Stevens 200 in 223 and I helped him put a $40. Simmons scope on it.We took it to the range and it shot a .56 group with some knock around 55 grain ammo I loaded.I couldn't get to the gunshop fast enough to buy one.I put a pretty good scope on it,if I remember correctly a Pentax, and it shoots great,but I have never got a .56 group out of it.
They don't or at least didn't offer a better trigger for it. One day I will have to work on it.
edit: so I decided to look & a trigger would cost 1/2 of what I paid for the rifle. Dang 😕
Back in the 70's, the el-cheapo ringer was Remington 788. With it's low price, birch stock, and rear locking bolt, it had no legitimate reason to be so accurate. The down side was it's sketchy trigger. At the time, a better trigger cost only a few dollars less than the difference to trade the 788 for a LNIB 700 so that's what I did.
At that time, it took 2 coyote pelts to pay the difference and another to add a Weaver 3-9x40 AO scope. I've never regretted the cost.
I still have my 788 22-250 and yes if I do my part it shoots 55 gr Hornady SP into very little groups , but it wears a Weaver straight 10x
Toolman, if the trigger is anything like the pre-accutrigger on Savage rifles, it CAN be cleaned up/smoothed up by a competent gunsmith or hobbyist. I purchased a Savage package gun many years ago at Walmart. The trigger was atrocious! Took it to Capital Sports in Helena and paid about $40 to have them do a trigger job. Not sure about the pull weight but it breaks clean with no grit and very little travel.
Thanks, I've reworked more than a few triggers & found a site that explains it well. Looks like I'll be giving it a go. Al