That "Dangerous Rifle" Thread Got Me Thinking (and now worrying) About My Own Handi-Rifle........
Frogdog
Member Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭✭
After reading that locked thread (https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/1905014/dangerous-rifle-for-sale#latest), I couldn't help but start wondering about the NEF case-colored frame on my own rifle. It's a NEF Handi-Rifle (shown below), chambered in .45-70. I picked it up about 20 years ago from an estate, and never gave it a thought that the frame and barrel might be mis-matched. Everything on it seems to match up well, and the barrel was marked .45-70 GOVT SB2, so I never considered it could be a "Frankenstein" gun. I have shot it, but maybe only a couple dozen rounds through it over the years.
In any case, that thread planted a seed of doubt since the frames are not marked, so I dug it out of the back of the safe and gave it a look, as I perused the various threads, FAQs, and internet musings here, on Greybeard Outdoors's big H&R section, and elsewhere. At the end of it, I came to the following limited conclusions:
- Frame was made around 1992. No markings to indicate SB1 or SB2 (as expected).
- Barrel has no numbers that would allow me to match it to the frame serial number.
- Frame exhibits some common characteristics noted for the SB1 (i.e. weaker/shotgun) frames; notably, a rougher, cast look in the bottom rather than smoothly machined. Looks similar to my other case-colored NEF shotguns (both 1996 or older), and not at all like my newer, smoothly machined .308 SB2.
- Firing pin size (as some folks discussed) doesn't tell me much. I think it looks closer in size to those shown for SB2s, but there seems to be too much variance across the models I have looked at to call anything definitive.
Ultimately, not sure what to think on this one. It seems unbelievable that back in the day H&R/NEF sent these things out of the factory without marking the receivers SB1 or SB2. As much as I like the little hand-rifles, that seems pretty irresponsible. On the bright side, I guess I have a little mystery to work on while I'm avoiding cold, winter yard work!
With H&R/NEF shut down by Remington for years now, anybody know if I could get a straight answer out of someone at Remington based on the serial #?
Comments
Does the inside of your receiver look rough or smooth. The rough SB1 was a cast receiver and the SB2 was forged and machined smooth. I know the SB1 was supposed to be o.k. with low pressure factory loads for the 30/30 but not for anything stronger. Maybe it is o.k. with some of the anemic factory 45/70 loads as well. JJE holdings bought H&R/NEF from the bankruptcy. That's Palmetto State Armorys parent company. Maybe they could help you out. Bob
Yea, it definitely looks rough in there...similar to my NEF single barrel shotguns, both of which are older and have the case-colored frames. Stark difference from my newer .308 Handi-Rifle and my newer Ultra Slug Hunter (both bought new, so known SB2's from the factory).
Should be ok since the 45-70 runs at about half the pressure of a '06.
But don't take my word for that because some of the modern hunting loads will exceed 45-70 rated SSAMI pressures for that round..
Check with the manufacture for best info
Thanks. That could account for why I still have a face after shooting the thing. Over time, though.....who knows. As you mentioned, my ideal scenario would be a call to the factory where they can look up the SN as say either, "Yep, left as a .45-70." However, not sure who (other than possibly the holdings company mentioned by Bobjudy) has the database with that info now that H&R/NEF has gone under.
I have one in 223 bought new and belonged to my brother ( RIP ) I did not see the post about the guns will have to some looking
I have wondered about people changing out barrels when I see them up for sale
What is the serial number letter prefix on your receiver?
It is NG, so 1992 production. Apparently, however, the serial number can tell you nothing anymore, because there is no H&R to ask and no available records to reference. The SB1 (shotgun) receivers and SB2 (rifle) receivers were not marked in any way, so the only way to tell the difference is visual characteristics. It also doesn't help that H&R marked the barrels SB1 or SB2. As a result, like me, you may have a gun that is stamped SB2 on the barrel......and never know you have a mismatched receiver unless you know what to look for. In case anyone else has one you are curious about, the things to look for are as follows (from an H&R specific forum):
I took the stock off of mne and definitively identified that the receiver on mine is the SB1 (i.e. weaker, shotgun) receiver. Since the barrel is marked "SB2," the guy before me (or him) must have put it together from two different guns. Very common with the handi-rifles. In any case, everyone I talk to seems to say it will be fine with regular .45-70 factory ammo (i.e. no Buffalo Bore, etc.)
Now you all have me wondering about the smokeless muzzle loader I had put together. They said send them a H&R action. I sent them the action from a New England 20ga shotgun. They fitted a Douglas barrel to it and I put synthetic furniture on it.
The pressure is all contained in the barrel since there is a breech plug. So I do not see a catastrophic failure happening but the fit may become loose over time causing issues.
i had one once that was in .223. after firing it, it was obvious it had a headspace problem. after research i learned of the problem with using the wrong frame. i gave it to a local gunsmith friend of mine to use for parts after explaining the problem to him.
If you sent it to H&R and they did the fitting at the factory, I would think that you are good to go. As I recall, they had pretty strict rules about what they would fit to what in their barrel accessory program The problems come in with the do-it-yourself builds. There was (and still is) a whole lot of barrel swaps that folks do with these little guns on their own. Mine is a perfect example.
If you want to get into it more, check out the H&R Talk section over on Graybeard Outdoors
https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/#h-r-talk.11
The folks on those boards (especially moderators) know everything you could ever dream of related to the H&R/NEF singles.
Was a gunsmith but not H&R. Thanks for the link.
I'm not sure what you mean by skeletonized??
Is the Stainless frame the SB2 or ?????
Take another look at the picture I posted above. The one on the left (silver) is the SB1. It is solid at the rear where the stock attaches. This is the weaker, shotgun receiver. Now, look closely at the one on the right. With it being black, it is easy to miss. However, you'll see that it is NOT solid, but rather has cut-outs machined into it above and below the stock screw hole. This style is the SB2 rifle receiver.
Based on the info I have read, this is the only definitive way to tell them apart.
I just checked the only Handi-Rifle I own. The serial number is stamped on the left side of the frame. Tipping the action open, and looking way down on the left side with a flashlight, the last 3 digits of the SN are shown.
Some do have that on the bottom piece of the barrel attachment (or whatever you call it). Usually left side and crudely engraved/scratched with the last three numbers. That may be a clue that the barrel and receiver are a match from the factory. However, not all of the handi-rifles and shotguns got their three numbers scratched on there at the factory (none of my 5 have it). Also, it's usually so crudely done that you can't tell for sure that somebody didn't scratch that on later (buyers like "matching" numbers).
As info, I sent in a handi rifle to Remington Arms several years ago. The issue was broken transfer bars. I replace 2 and finally sent in the rifle to get a 3rd transfer bar replaced. When I picked the rifle up I was surprised to see they covered it under warranty. The tech brought the rifle down to me and advised I would have never guessed what was wrong. It seems someone had installed a rifle barrel on a shotgun frame. The tech fixed the problem, I guess he fitted the barrel to the frame.
franksshooting,
The scenario you described above is exactly the situation to be concerned about. With a very few exceptions, if you have a centerfire rifle barrel that someone fitted on a shotgun receiver, it is not a safe combination.
I "grabbed" a 22 Hornet barrel that I found in the bargain box at a Cabela's. At $35 I didn't care that the bore wasn't perfect. Anyway, it fit nicely on an older 12 ga frame I had & shoots well. Heck, it's only a Hornet... But now I'm concerned as the cup is more then 3 times the 12 ga.
I would do a little reading over on the H&R Forum I linked above. As I recall, the Hornet is somewhat of a debate, with some folks having them on SB1 frames, and others saying it is not safe. In their barrel accessory program back in the day, H&R would not put a Hornet barrel on an SB1 frame.
On the bright side, if you were to decide to part it out and sell the receiver, barrel, and stock set all separately, you might make more money than the whole. Lots of Handi-Rifle fans out there waiting to snap that stuff up.