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Short barrel shotgun pre 1898
haroldchrismeyer
Member Posts: 2,213 ✭
I was told today a friend of a friend has a sawed off shotgun. His friend claims it is legal because it was made before 1898. Is this true? How short can it be if it is legal?
Comments
If it is muzzle loading then he is correct.
Also for Pre-1898 status that gun by serial number not by model number had to be made prior to Jan 1, 1899.
EDIT:
Here is a link I found but there is no reference to his source. It agrees with what I said.
http://www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html
Q: I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern "firearms" if they are chambered to fire ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct?
That is absolutely incorrect. ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or other NFA category, such as a short barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law. There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers. They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.)
This should clear up most questions:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html
It is true that the law uses the phrase "in or before 1898" in describing what an Antique is. But that is only the first part, it's quickly followed by a list of conditions and exceptions. You have to read it all to get the full picture.
See page 201 of Title 18 US Code here:
http://uscode.house.gov/pdf/2009/2009usc18.pdf
The definition of "Antique" is a legalese one, not what common people would think of. It is not merely the age of the gun that matters. It is the design and the ammunition that defines "Antique". Boiling it all down:
1. Regardless of age, no firearm is an Antique if it uses currently available rimfire or centerfire ammunition. So an 1880's era Colt SAA revolver in caliber .44-40 is not an Antique because you can still buy ammo for it.
2. Regardless of age, any firearm that uses a matchlock, percussion cap, flintlock or similar ignition system is an Antique. Even if it is a replica flintlock rifle manufactured ten minutes ago, it's an Antique under the law.
3. If your replica percussion black powder muzzle loader is one that can exchange the barrel and instantly become a cartridge gun it is not an Antique either.
As I read it, people have been illegally shipping guns they thought were antiques for years, by sending them directly to unlicensed buyers instead of to FFL holders. The BATFE has not been pushing this point. As a result the misconception has spread that any gun made "in or before 1898" is an Antique.
By the way, I sought clarification from FedEx on their firearms shipping policy. They do not want to deal with figuring out what an "Antique" is, so all firearms, regardless of age or type, are handled as if they are modern firearms.
You are so wrong.
It is true that the law uses the phrase "in or before 1898" in describing what an Antique is. But that is only the first part, it's quickly followed by a list of conditions and exceptions. You have to read it all to get the full picture.
See page 201 of Title 18 US Code here:
http://uscode.house.gov/pdf/2009/2009usc18.pdf
The definition of "Antique" is a legalese one, not what common people would think of. It is not merely the age of the gun that matters. It is the design and the ammunition that defines "Antique". Boiling it all down:
1. Regardless of age, no firearm is an Antique if it uses currently available rimfire or centerfire ammunition. So an 1880's era Colt SAA revolver in caliber .44-40 is not an Antique because you can still buy ammo for it.
2. Regardless of age, any firearm that uses a matchlock, percussion cap, flintlock or similar ignition system is an Antique. Even if it is a replica flintlock rifle manufactured ten minutes ago, it's an Antique under the law.
3. If your replica percussion black powder muzzle loader is one that can exchange the barrel and instantly become a cartridge gun it is not an Antique either.
As I read it, people have been illegally shipping guns they thought were antiques for years, by sending them directly to unlicensed buyers instead of to FFL holders. The BATFE has not been pushing this point. As a result the misconception has spread that any gun made "in or before 1898" is an Antique.
By the way, I sought clarification from FedEx on their firearms shipping policy. They do not want to deal with figuring out what an "Antique" is, so all firearms, regardless of age or type, are handled as if they are modern firearms.
Not even close to factual.
Title 18, Section 921(a)(16) then defines "antique firearm" as follows:
"The term 'antique firearm' means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."
Note use use of the words any firearm in (A) of the definition? That means exactly what it says...Any firearm. The issue here is that NFA items found in Title II if the 1968 Gun Control Act are not in fact classified as firearms, which means that they have no sporting purpose (which of course can be argued) and are considered to be weapons and subject to control...Antique or not. There are NFA items which the BATFE has removed from the constraints of the National Firearms Act due to the collector appeal and minimal chance for misuse, but these are few.
However, I realize that is off-topic here, so I will most a fresh topic with more details.
Chris
Okay, I did make an error and so I deleted my earlier post. Also the topic here is specific to an antique shotgun being cut down, and my post is more general to the definition of antique firearms for GCA / NFA purposes. These laws use different definitions of "Antique" and the BATFE uses both of them, which makes everyone right and everyone wrong, depending on which law you quote.
However, I realize that is off-topic here, so I will most a fresh topic with more details.
Chris
Chris,
There is only one legal definition in the U.S. Code for what constitutes an "Antique" firearm.
Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section ?921, paragraph (16), an "Antique" firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The BATFE uses the above quoted definition as it is the law. That said, there are some BATFE employees who do not understand the part in paragraph (B) concerning sections (i) and (ii), and they mistakenly believe that it applies to paragraph (A).
The fact of the matter is this... any firearm manufactured before January 1st, 1899 is an "Antique", regardless of what type of ammunition it uses. To give you an example, a Winchester Model 1894 30-30 caliber that was manufactured in December of 1898 is legally an "antique", whereas the identical gun that was manufactured one month later (January 1899,) is a "modern" firearm.
Another point that should be understood is this... If you were to find a Winchester (or any other make) Rifle or Carbine that was factory equipped with a barrel shorter than 16-inches, and it was manufactured before January 1st, 1899, it does not require a BATFE clearance letter. If it was manufactured after December 31st, 1898, then it must be sent to the BATFE and cleared before you can legally possess it.
When I realized my point was really off-topic for this thread and that I had assigned the Title 26 (NFA) definition to Title 18 (GCA), I deleted the earlier post and moved my discussion to this new thread, which I think has reached its conclusion already:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=482882
But as you found me here I will round this one out I guess.
There are indeed two definitions of an Antique Firearm in the Federal statutes, both appearing on BATFE web pages and publications. In some cases these are not well presented, as in the context is less than clear. Especially when you find them as I did, by using their own search option. That lets you leap over intervening explanations, giving you info out of context.
What I did not realize, and what others have been kind enough to explain, is that the NFA definition of an Antique (found in Title 26), covers a limited and specific set of firearms and circumstances. It does not apply to all firearms generally.
For firearms generally it is indeed the GCA (Title 18) that controls.
So for purposes of defining any particular firearm as an antique or not, we need to know which law it falls under. The NFA / Title 26 limited set or the GCA / Title 18 general provisions. That takes closer examination, and in most cases Title 18 will be the result.
However, and this is important, if you are talking about a short barreled firearm the NFA definition of an Antique may well save you an expensive tax hit. Or it may turn what you thought was a legally owned antique into a firearm that is supposed to be registered and taxed.
The devil is in the details.
Thank you for your help,
Chris
PS: Personally, I think if something is older than me it's an Antique. If it is as old as me, it is clearly a Curio, possibly a Relic and beyond all doubts a Collectible
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Chris,
There is only one legal definition in the U.S. Code for what constitutes an "Antique" firearm.
Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section ?921, paragraph (16), an "Antique" firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The BATFE uses the above quoted definition as it is the law. That said, there are some BATFE employees who do not understand the part in paragraph (B) concerning sections (i) and (ii), and they mistakenly believe that it applies to paragraph (A).
The fact of the matter is this... any firearm manufactured before January 1st, 1899 is an "Antique", regardless of what type of ammunition it uses. To give you an example, a Winchester Model 1894 30-30 caliber that was manufactured in December of 1898 is legally an "antique", whereas the identical gun that was manufactured one month later (January 1899,) is a "modern" firearm.
Another point that should be understood is this... If you were to find a Winchester (or any other make) Rifle or Carbine that was factory equipped with a barrel shorter than 16-inches, and it was manufactured before January 1st, 1899, it does not require a BATFE clearance letter. If it was manufactured after December 31st, 1898, then it must be sent to the BATFE and cleared before you can legally possess it.
quote:Originally posted by ChrisInTempe
Hi Bert,
When I realized my point was really off-topic for this thread and that I had assigned the Title 26 (NFA) definition to Title 18 (GCA), I deleted the earlier post and moved my discussion to this new thread, which I think has reached its conclusion already:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?whichpage=-1&TOPIC_ID=482882
But as you found me here I will round this one out I guess.
There are indeed two definitions of an Antique Firearm in the Federal statutes, both appearing on BATFE web pages and publications. In some cases these are not well presented, as in the context is less than clear. Especially when you find them as I did, by using their own search option. That lets you leap over intervening explanations, giving you info out of context.
What I did not realize, and what others have been kind enough to explain, is that the NFA definition of an Antique (found in Title 26), covers a limited and specific set of firearms and circumstances. It does not apply to all firearms generally.
For firearms generally it is indeed the GCA (Title 18) that controls.
So for purposes of defining any particular firearm as an antique or not, we need to know which law it falls under. The NFA / Title 26 limited set or the GCA / Title 18 general provisions. That takes closer examination, and in most cases Title 18 will be the result.
However, and this is important, if you are talking about a short barreled firearm the NFA definition of an Antique may well save you an expensive tax hit. Or it may turn what you thought was a legally owned antique into a firearm that is supposed to be registered and taxed.
The devil is in the details.
Thank you for your help,
Chris
PS: Personally, I think if something is older than me it's an Antique. If it is as old as me, it is clearly a Curio, possibly a Relic and beyond all doubts a Collectible
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Chris,
There is only one legal definition in the U.S. Code for what constitutes an "Antique" firearm.
Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section ?921, paragraph (16), an "Antique" firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The BATFE uses the above quoted definition as it is the law. That said, there are some BATFE employees who do not understand the part in paragraph (B) concerning sections (i) and (ii), and they mistakenly believe that it applies to paragraph (A).
The fact of the matter is this... any firearm manufactured before January 1st, 1899 is an "Antique", regardless of what type of ammunition it uses. To give you an example, a Winchester Model 1894 30-30 caliber that was manufactured in December of 1898 is legally an "antique", whereas the identical gun that was manufactured one month later (January 1899,) is a "modern" firearm.
Another point that should be understood is this... If you were to find a Winchester (or any other make) Rifle or Carbine that was factory equipped with a barrel shorter than 16-inches, and it was manufactured before January 1st, 1899, it does not require a BATFE clearance letter. If it was manufactured after December 31st, 1898, then it must be sent to the BATFE and cleared before you can legally possess it.
Since the NFA is the most restrictive I suggest you begin by evaluating the shotgun under NFA rules. If you get by those, then look at it under GCA rules.
The general purpose of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) is to restrict concealable shotguns, rifles, machine guns and explosives or shotguns and rifles that have been cut down to make them concealable.
NFA & Barrel Length:
Measure from the breech to the muzzle, what is the barrel length? If equal to or greater than 18", you most likely do not have to worry about NFA (Title 26) at all and can go on to reviewing GCA rules.
However ...
NFA & Guns Modified From Original:
Is your gun modified in barrel or stock length? If it has been cut down to either less than 18" barrel length or less than 26" overall length then it becomes "a weapon made from a shotgun" under NFA and is regulated by the NFA.
Age:
Under NFA, age does not matter if modern ammunition is used and either of the above length tests are failed.
NFA & Exceptions:
The NFA allows for exceptions for weapons that are clearly unlikely to be used by criminals. Only the BATFE can answer this point.
If you pass the NFA tests, you go on to the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA).
Under GCA all that matters is age. When was the gun made? Can you verify that is was made "in or before 1898"? Is the date stamp original or did someone stamp it on the gun to make it easier to export to the USA? If you can verify the age is correct then the shotgun is an antique and no FFL is required for transfer.
Another idea you may want to try is to take photos of the gun and its markings and post a new topic here. See if anyone here can identify the make or knows the make's history.
Good Luck,
Chris
quote:Originally posted by hooligan1seven
I don't mean to sound dim, but you and Bert H. have confused me. I have a side by side shotgun that I picked up in South West Asia, it's stamped "Made in 1898", "S.A.C." "Made in England" and serial# 10XX. I'm pretty sure that the barrel is 18 inches in length (I know pretty sure is the wrong answer). The shotgun fires standard shotgun ammunition. My question is: Is this considered an antique? Thanks for the help.
quote:Originally posted by ChrisInTempe
hooligan1seven,
Since the NFA is the most restrictive I suggest you begin by evaluating the shotgun under NFA rules. If you get by those, then look at it under GCA rules.
The general purpose of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) is to restrict concealable shotguns, rifles, machine guns and explosives or shotguns and rifles that have been cut down to make them concealable.
NFA & Barrel Length:
Measure from the breech to the muzzle, what is the barrel length? If equal to or greater than 18", you most likely do not have to worry about NFA (Title 26) at all and can go on to reviewing GCA rules.
However ...
NFA & Guns Modified From Original:
Is your gun modified in barrel or stock length? If it has been cut down to either less than 18" barrel length or less than 26" overall length then it becomes "a weapon made from a shotgun" under NFA and is regulated by the NFA.
Age:
Under NFA, age does not matter if modern ammunition is used and either of the above length tests are failed.
NFA & Exceptions:
The NFA allows for exceptions for weapons that are clearly unlikely to be used by criminals. Only the BATFE can answer this point.
If you pass the NFA tests, you go on to the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA).
Under GCA all that matters is age. When was the gun made? Can you verify that is was made "in or before 1898"? Is the date stamp original or did someone stamp it on the gun to make it easier to export to the USA? If you can verify the age is correct then the shotgun is an antique and no FFL is required for transfer.
Another idea you may want to try is to take photos of the gun and its markings and post a new topic here. See if anyone here can identify the make or knows the make's history.
Good Luck,
Chris
quote:Originally posted by hooligan1seven
I don't mean to sound dim, but you and Bert H. have confused me. I have a side by side shotgun that I picked up in South West Asia, it's stamped "Made in 1898", "S.A.C." "Made in England" and serial# 10XX. I'm pretty sure that the barrel is 18 inches in length (I know pretty sure is the wrong answer). The shotgun fires standard shotgun ammunition. My question is: Is this considered an antique? Thanks for the help.
If you alter, (manufacture a NFA/title two firearm yourself) or it has been prior manufactured into a title II firearm (both items controlled by the National Firearms Act), there is no such thing as a date of manufacture consideration!.
Title two firearms are machineguns, short barrelled rifles, short barrelled shotguns, and AOW's (cane guns, etc).
In summary: The classification of antique [as defined] are reserved for the items in blue, above only. You lose the antique status when it is determined to be an NFA item. Best, Joe
But perhaps this is a point of semantics? What the Antique definition in NFA is doing is telling us what is NOT an NFA controlled weapon. So if a firearm fits the NFA definition of an Antique, it instantly is not an NFA regulated firearm, which is why knowing that definition is important.
One more point for other readers here who are going to be confused by all these "Titles". "Title I" and "Title II" are legal terms used to describe Federal firearms laws. Title 18 and Title 26 are the actual statutes these legal terms refer to. I wish they never did that, I wish they hadn't used "Title this" to more easily describe "Title that". I suppose someone thought it would be easier to remember, but all it did was create more confusion.
"Title I" of Federal firearms law is the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is actually found in the US Code, Title 18, Chapter 44. Title 18 is "Crimes & Criminal Procedure".
"Title II" of Federal firearms law is the National Firearms Act of 1934, which is actually found in the US Code, Title 26, Chapter 53. Title 26 is the "Internal Revenue Code". I guess they originally put the NFA under Internal Revenue as it used taxes to control NFA weapons.
quote:Originally posted by givette
The antique category is restricted to title I firearms only. Title one firearms are the Long gun, Handgun, Shotgun-everyday type guns. NFA firearms do not have an antique category.
If you alter, (manufacture a NFA/title two firearm yourself) or it has been prior manufactured into a title II firearm (both items controlled by the National Firearms Act), there is no such thing as a date of manufacture consideration!.
Title two firearms are machineguns, short barrelled rifles, short barrelled shotguns, and AOW's (cane guns, etc).
In summary: The classification of antique [as defined] are reserved for the items in blue, above only. You lose the antique status when it is determined to be an NFA item. Best, Joe
I suggest that you contact an attorney who specializes in firearms laws; he can provide you with a detailed breakdown of the laws and regulations covering antique firearms.