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Lions, Tiger's & Bears! .45ACPs & 00 Buck OH MY!
zipperzap
Member Posts: 25,057
I was reading the thread about using the .45ACP as bear defense ... and a few suggested the defensive use of shotguns and buckshot against brownies and black bears.
Now this thread isn't to bash the shotgun. The shotgun was the long gun of choice for the settlers moving west. The shotgun is a wonderful home defense weapon. But not being in control of ammunition components (I don't reload for the 12 gauge) got me to thinking a while back, and so I did some research on the lethality of the shotgun.
Again, I think the point is moot that the shot gun is an excellent defense against humans, so let's look at defense against large furry critters (think bears) only.
#4 Buck, assumed MV of 1260fps
- 27 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .24"
- pellet weight: 20 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .052
- ME of 1 pellet: 70 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 1,970 ft lbs
00 Buck, assuming MV of 1295fps
- 9 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .33"
- pellet weight: 54 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .070
- ME of 1 pellet: 200 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 1,810 ft lbs
000 Buck, assuming MV of 1265fps
- 8 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .36"
- pellet weight: 70 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .077
- ME of 1 pellet: 250 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 2,000 ft lbs
The last number of each group is misleading, in my opinion. Even if the load is 27, 9, or 8 pellets, each pellet must be considered individually in terms of penetration and tissue disruption. Add to that the fact that most shot gun projectiles are soft lead, and I believe penetration is insufficient for reliable defense against large furry critters such as bears.
... any ideas/opinions?
References:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Now this thread isn't to bash the shotgun. The shotgun was the long gun of choice for the settlers moving west. The shotgun is a wonderful home defense weapon. But not being in control of ammunition components (I don't reload for the 12 gauge) got me to thinking a while back, and so I did some research on the lethality of the shotgun.
Again, I think the point is moot that the shot gun is an excellent defense against humans, so let's look at defense against large furry critters (think bears) only.
#4 Buck, assumed MV of 1260fps
- 27 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .24"
- pellet weight: 20 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .052
- ME of 1 pellet: 70 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 1,970 ft lbs
00 Buck, assuming MV of 1295fps
- 9 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .33"
- pellet weight: 54 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .070
- ME of 1 pellet: 200 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 1,810 ft lbs
000 Buck, assuming MV of 1265fps
- 8 pellets in a 2 3/4 in shell
- pellet diameter: .36"
- pellet weight: 70 grains
- sectional density of 1 pellet: .077
- ME of 1 pellet: 250 ft lbs
- ME of all pellets: 2,000 ft lbs
The last number of each group is misleading, in my opinion. Even if the load is 27, 9, or 8 pellets, each pellet must be considered individually in terms of penetration and tissue disruption. Add to that the fact that most shot gun projectiles are soft lead, and I believe penetration is insufficient for reliable defense against large furry critters such as bears.
... any ideas/opinions?
References:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/shotgun.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Comments
You left out slugs from your comparisons...
That and your likelyhood of a hit with each pull of the trigger multiplies by a minimum of 800% with each pull of the trigger...
Here are the e-mails.
"Hi Mike! Yes we can modify the super magnums. My question is why do you
want a 3 1/2 chambered version?? Our system tightens up patterns to the
point that the 3 1/2" version is really not needed, unless you are hunting
Tyrannosaurus Rex. The PD's in Alaska us our 870's with the 2 1/2"
versions...they have a bad problem with bears which our shotguns take care
of very well. If our shotguns can down Polar bears, you won't have any
problem with home protection. We use the 18" barrels as they have proven to
give us the best over all patterns. Right now we are offering $100.00 off
our regular price for a fully loaded Remington 870. This includes the VCS
package with porting, MMC Ghost Ring Sights (the best yet), Tactical
Package...the list goes on and on. Our turn around times for this batch is
less than 30 days. You cannot get a better deal. If you buy some where
else you will end up spending more money on shipping and have to wait a
whole lot longer...it just isn't worth it. Give us a call at (805)964-7956
after 1:00pm and Hans will be happy to help you out. He will answer all
your questions...and put some myths to rest for you.
Thanks for the email.
VCS
Mike, we sell a whole lot of VCS 870's to the Alaska PD's because they are
extremely reliable and get the job done. In fact Hans is going up there
next month. The real fact is that Alaska has a serious bear problem. Our
guys up there have no problem downing the bears with their VCS 870's. Think
of it this way, our patterns show averrage groups of 10-12" at 25 yards.
Most people can't fire a handgun that good at 25 yards. Those 00buck
pellets are roughly the size of 9mm rounds so they do impact very hard.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate downing a bear at short range (25 yards and
under using 00buck) with my VCS 870. I know the knock down power and I do a
lot of testing of these guns. Now with the 3 1/2 " shells, this only means
more powder behing the round. Wow, what a combination.
You have to take in consideration the range of the shot, how good of a shot
you are, how well can you handle your gun in hot situations like this before
really answering if you can down a bear in one shot. This is the reson for
having multiple rounds available in the gun...just in case. Everyone is
different and will react differently, but the guys up north swear by their
870's and they are in the hot seat everyday.
Give Hans a call and get started, then you will see what I mean. Take your
gun out to a range and practice on 2x4's and 4x4 lumber. Oh you will be
amazed at the force behind 00buck, it is devistating.
Thanks again for the email.
VCS"
Reged: Mon
Posts: 35
Loc: Greenville, IN Re: Buckshot on Bears [Re: m00num]