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Its a Dine in Buffet not take out!!
shilowar
Member Posts: 38,811 ✭✭✭
*!
http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/26/off-duty-deputy-kills-suspect/6923099/
SALISBURY, N.C. -- Authorities in Salisbury say an off-duty Rowan County sheriff's deputy shot and killed a man attempting to rob the restaurant where he was having dinner.
Police said the deputy was dining at around 9 p.m. Monday when the suspect came into the restaurant wielding a shotgun and wearing a mask over his face.
The deputy shot the suspect following what police described as a brief confrontation. After the shooting, Salisbury Police shut down the restaurant and detained customers and employees until they could be interviewed.
The sheriff's office said the deputy involved was John L. Kemp. He has worked at the sheriff's office for less than a year.
The suspect has not been identified.
Because it was an officer-involved shooting, the State Bureau of Investigation was called to the restaurant, and agents have taken over the case.
http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/crime/2014/03/26/off-duty-deputy-kills-suspect/6923099/
SALISBURY, N.C. -- Authorities in Salisbury say an off-duty Rowan County sheriff's deputy shot and killed a man attempting to rob the restaurant where he was having dinner.
Police said the deputy was dining at around 9 p.m. Monday when the suspect came into the restaurant wielding a shotgun and wearing a mask over his face.
The deputy shot the suspect following what police described as a brief confrontation. After the shooting, Salisbury Police shut down the restaurant and detained customers and employees until they could be interviewed.
The sheriff's office said the deputy involved was John L. Kemp. He has worked at the sheriff's office for less than a year.
The suspect has not been identified.
Because it was an officer-involved shooting, the State Bureau of Investigation was called to the restaurant, and agents have taken over the case.
Comments
So, if I read this the way it is written, the man was eating and robbing at the same time. [:0]
Difficult situation with lots of variables. Are you in your jurisdiction in a small agency where arriving officers will recognize you, or in a large agency or out of your jurisdiction where you are not identified and just a man with a gun. Our department trains not to get involved off duty in situations like this and confront a suspect unless there is an immediate threat to human life. If the guy fires a shot or directly threatens someones life, as opposed to wielding a shotgun, then you do what you have to do. Robberies occur all the time, and very rarely involve gunfire if the robber is not challenged. You have to size up the situation, and use your best judgement. The guy could have an accomplice out of view, or responding officers could be set up viewing the scene and only see the unidentified officer shooting someone. Sometimes you are forced into action, sometimes it is best to be a good witness. I personally have almost shot two off duty officers who got involved in felonies in progress. Officers shooting off duty officers is a common occurrence, something every off duty officer has to remember. It is easy to get caught up in the moment. CCWs and store owners also have guns handy, and once someone in plain clothes starts shooting it can turn into a cluster.
Interesting perspective I understand the reasoning.
It is also a wonderful day when a man carrying a deadly weapon, like a shotgun, gets permanently removed from the gene pool. Somebody wielding a shotgun during a robbery is unpredictable in my way of looking at things. Killing his dumb butt removes the unpredictable factor real fast..
Difficult situation with lots of variables. Are you in your jurisdiction in a small agency where arriving officers will recognize you, or in a large agency or out of your jurisdiction where you are not identified and just a man with a gun. Our department trains not to get involved off duty in situations like this and confront a suspect unless there is an immediate threat to human life. If the guy fires a shot or directly threatens someones life, as opposed to wielding a shotgun, then you do what you have to do. Robberies occur all the time, and very rarely involve gunfire if the robber is not challenged. You have to size up the situation, and use your best judgement. The guy could have an accomplice out of view, or responding officers could be set up viewing the scene and only see the unidentified officer shooting someone. Sometimes you are forced into action, sometimes it is best to be a good witness. I personally have almost shot two off duty officers who got involved in felonies in progress. Officers shooting off duty officers is a common occurrence, something every off duty officer has to remember. It is easy to get caught up in the moment. CCWs and store owners also have guns handy, and once someone in plain clothes starts shooting it can turn into a cluster.
One come in flashing a gun and wants my candied apples, well it is curtain time for them.
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
The writing skills of the 4th estate.
I'm guess it takes 4 years of college to learn how to muck up a simple set of facts.
Margaret Thatcher
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
Mark Twain
All news stories lack details. Situation Normal.
However, if the basic facts are as stated, there's a dead bad guy who was armed with a shotgun and a good guy who is alive, along with a whole bunch of regular folks who ain't dead or otherwise robbed neither.
So it's all good? Yes?
Yes...
Ahh.
The writing skills of the 4th estate.
I'm guess it takes 4 years of college to learn how to muck up a simple set of facts.
Nope... Just be in Salisbury...
I love a happy ending!
I also don't believe it is necessary or advisable for an armed man to wait until a gun-wielding antagonist demonstrates an "immediate threat to human life." That would be after he took his first shot, killed his first victim, maybe? Sashaying in, brandishing a weapon, seems to me to be a pretty immediate threat.
It seemed the same to Deputy Paul Robertson, who was shopping in a Walmart, off duty, when a man came in firing a rifle. Paul did what he had to do, and got shot himself. Even though shot, he was able to return fire and drive the gunman back outside, where he was finished off by responding police.
I believe Paul was shot because he was in "cop mode," and he challenged the bad guy, and that he might have fared better had he just taken cover and started shooting. I hope if I am ever faced with a similar situation, I can turn off "cop mode" and focus solely on stopping the threat.
I will tell you what the "brief confrontation" would have been, had I been there. Especially if the guy with the shotgun had his back turned to me.
"BANG BANG BANG! DROP YOUR WEAPON OR I'LL SHOOT!"
quote:Our department trains not to get involved off duty in situations like this and confront a suspect unless there is an immediate threat to human life. If the guy fires a shot or directly threatens someones life, as opposed to wielding a shotgun, then you do what you have to do. Robberies occur all the time, and very rarely involve gunfire if the robber is not challenged.
I love a happy ending!
I also don't believe it is necessary or advisable for an armed man to wait until a gun-wielding antagonist demonstrates an "immediate threat to human life." That would be after he took his first shot, killed his first victim, maybe? Sashaying in, brandishing a weapon, seems to me to be a pretty immediate threat.
It seemed the same to Deputy Paul Robertson, who was shopping in a Walmart, off duty, when a man came in firing a rifle. Paul did what he had to do, and got shot himself. Even though shot, he was able to return fire and drive the gunman back outside, where he was finished off by responding police.
I believe Paul was shot because he was in "cop mode," and he challenged the bad guy, and that he might have fared better had he just taken cover and started shooting. I hope if I am ever faced with a similar situation, I can turn off "cop mode" and focus solely on stopping the threat.
A man walking into Walmart firing a rifle is far more than a threat, it is a person using deadly force. Big difference. Like I said, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. What if the guy walked into Walmart just waving the rifle around. Would you confront him when off duty in plain clothes? Seems like a bad idea to me. Confronting a person in that circumstance off duty can escalate the threat into a shooting endangering innocent people, and if it went bad you could be held responsible. If someone is killing or attempting to kill people, stop them if you can. If they merely pose a threat, be a good witness and wait for the cavalry. Thats just common sense and good tactics.
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
More experience? Sir, with ALL due respect, I have almost 20 years on the job. I think that is experienced enough to recognize and properly deal with the threat. [;)]
And while you sit and cower down, being a "good witness" and wait for him to start killing innocents, I'll be the one saving your *. Jus' sayin'.[:0]
"Authorities in Salisbury say an off-duty Rowan County sheriff's deputy shot and killed a man attempting to rob the restaurant where he was having dinner."
So, if I read this the way it is written, the man was eating and robbing at the same time. [:0]
quote:Originally posted by woodshed87
I Believe He was Robbing A Restaurant Using a Shotgun And Mask , Where the Cop Was Eating...
After the shooting, Salisbury Police shut down the restaurant and detained customers and employees until they could be interviewed Until they could get their story straight.[;)]
I hope the police officer gets some kind of good therapy....extraordinary situations like this could really mess up a man's mind.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
More experience? Sir, with ALL due respect, I have almost 20 years on the job. I think that is experienced enough to recognize and properly deal with the threat. [;)]
And while you sit and cower down, being a "good witness" and wait for him to start killing innocents, I'll be the one saving your *. Jus' sayin'.[:0]
I have been to hundreds of man with a gun and robbery calls. Very seldom are any shots fired by the suspect. If you jump up off duty and confront the person you probably will escalate the situation into a shooting. And if he is wearing a vest and takes your center mass hit he will shoot you and who knows who else in the melee. Or if you shoot him his accomplice in hiding will shoot you and who knows who else in the excitement. Or the responding officer set up outside with a rifle watching through his crosshairs may shoot you, an unidentified guy who jumps up and starts firing a gun. Like I said, if I thought for some reason the suspect was about to kill someone I would take action. If he is merely wielding a gun and posing a threat I would watch and wait. Robbers generally want to get money and get away. Unless someone challenges them or blocks their escape. Rookies (and officers with rookie mentalities) feel they have to jump in the middle of everything, often causing more problems then they solve. Their mindset is "what would Dirty Harry do?". You "saving my *" sounds more like escalating a bad situation and endangering me. I won't be cowering down, I will have my weapon in my hand concealed, alert to the moment the mere threat escalates to an attack.
I don't believe anyone has a problem with the result in this case. It does not always turn out so well. If the robber was wearing body armor, available everywhere, a shot to center mass probably would have resulted in his wildly firing his shotgun, probably bad results there. If the suspect had an accomplice the accomplice would have shot the officer or other innocent diners who got in the way. If officers were set up outside with rifles viewing the scene they may have shot the person they saw firing a weapon, the officer. I am armed in public all the time off duty. I would stand down when seeing a crime in progress unless deadly force was being used, I would not act on a mere threat. I would discretely dial 911 and let dispatch know what was happening. I know the vulnerability of jumping into a crime in progress. Some things are best left to the responding police.
[/quote]
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
More experience? Sir, with ALL due respect, I have almost 20 years on the job. I think that is experienced enough to recognize and properly deal with the threat. [;)]
And while you sit and cower down, being a "good witness" and wait for him to start killing innocents, I'll be the one saving your *. Jus' sayin'.[:0]
But, but, but....if, if if if if if if if if if if. [;)]
Over the years, for better or worse, I've been in several of those situations. My response each time was based on the actions of the gunman, proximity to innocents, etc. If I felt there was a chance he was just going to grab and run I moved those around me to the safest positions possible, took in as much info as I could and waitied for the on-duty folks to do their thing. On the other hand,when it's time to move, hesitation can be fatal. Those situations were "resolved".
I don't believe anyone has a problem with the result in this case. It does not always turn out so well. If the robber was wearing body armor, available everywhere, a shot to center mass probably would have resulted in his wildly firing his shotgun, probably bad results there. If the suspect had an accomplice the accomplice would have shot the officer or other innocent diners who got in the way. If officers were set up outside with rifles viewing the scene they may have shot the person they saw firing a weapon, the officer. I am armed in public all the time off duty. I would stand down when seeing a crime in progress unless deadly force was being used, I would not act on a mere threat. I would discretely dial 911 and let dispatch know what was happening. I know the vulnerability of jumping into a crime in progress. Some things are best left to the responding police.
...so you wouldn't act unless the robber shot some one?You a police officer?
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
More experience? Sir, with ALL due respect, I have almost 20 years on the job. I think that is experienced enough to recognize and properly deal with the threat. [;)]
And while you sit and cower down, being a "good witness" and wait for him to start killing innocents, I'll be the one saving your *. Jus' sayin'.[:0]
I have been to hundreds of man with a gun and robbery calls. Very seldom are any shots fired by the suspect. If you jump up off duty and confront the person you probably will escalate the situation into a shooting. And if he is wearing a vest and takes your center mass hit he will shoot you and who knows who else in the melee. Or if you shoot him his accomplice in hiding will shoot you and who knows who else in the excitement. Or the responding officer set up outside with a rifle watching through his crosshairs may shoot you, an unidentified guy who jumps up and starts firing a gun. Like I said, if I thought for some reason the suspect was about to kill someone I would take action. If he is merely wielding a gun and posing a threat I would watch and wait. Robbers generally want to get money and get away. Unless someone challenges them or blocks their escape. Rookies (and officers with rookie mentalities) feel they have to jump in the middle of everything, often causing more problems then they solve. Their mindset is "what would Dirty Harry do?". You "saving my *" sounds more like escalating a bad situation and endangering me. I won't be cowering down, I will have my weapon in my hand concealed, alert to the moment the mere threat escalates to an attack.
I understand what you are saying, there are many ways to "do the right thing". However using statistics is why a comply and wait line of thought was used when the jets were hi-jacked on 9/11. Real life situtation are written as statistics after the outcome is determined. Real time evaluation and action are not statistics, they are what decides what column the event is recorded in.
I wasn't there so I will trust the officer's judgement on this one as I trust he was trying to do the best for the situtation. I am sure there were other possible courses of action but we can't know what the results would have been, good or bad. We do know what the results are of the action he took. To me the results are acceptable.
Seems like the deputy did the right thing!
It worked out well.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
Getting involved off-duty can sometimes be a tricky proposition, but, based on the fact a shotgun welding, mask wearing idiot comes into a business and is trying to rob it, in my opinion, he IS a direct and imminent threat to EVERYONE in the building. I believe my course of actions would have been the same. Good job, Deputy!
With more experience your opinion may change.
More experience? Sir, with ALL due respect, I have almost 20 years on the job. I think that is experienced enough to recognize and properly deal with the threat. [;)]
And while you sit and cower down, being a "good witness" and wait for him to start killing innocents, I'll be the one saving your *. Jus' sayin'.[:0]
[;)]
To each his own, I guess. We could sit here till doomsday with the "what if's" and the "I'da dones". It's a catch 22 of sorts and I'm glad it worked out in this one.
I was not commenting on this specific incident, as I do not know enough about it to say if the officers action was appropriate or not. My comments were made to discuss off duty officers jumping in the middle of crimes in progress, pro and con. There is a time to get involved, and and a time to stand down. Some of the comments made indicate an off duty officer should get involved every time he sees a potentially life threatening situation. Not always a wise decision, and I have stated why. And my statements were based on real life events I have been involved in, not bare emotions. Just because something "turns out good" does not mean it was a wise or proper thing to do. I could continue a vehicle pursuit 100MPH through a busy school zone and later say "well, I didn't run over any kids". That would not make it a proper police procedure.
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
To each his own, I guess. We could sit here till doomsday with the "what if's" and the "I'da dones". It's a catch 22 of sorts and I'm glad it worked out in this one.
I was not commenting on this specific incident, as I do not know enough about it to say if the officers action was appropriate or not. My comments were made to discuss off duty officers jumping in the middle of crimes in progress, pro and con. There is a time to get involved, and and a time to stand down. Some of the comments made indicate an off duty officer should get involved every time he sees a potentially life threatening situation. Not always a wise decision, and I have stated why. And my statements were based on real life events I have been involved in, not bare emotions. Just because something "turns out good" does not mean it was a wise or proper thing to do. I could continue a vehicle pursuit 100MPH through a busy school zone and later say "well, I didn't run over any kids". That would not make it a proper police procedure.
I whole heartedly agree that continuing a pursuit through a school zone at ANY speed is not smart, but it endangers many innocents. So my argument is this. You stop or terminate the pursuit to save lives. The decision to act in an obvious and imminent threat when facing an armed assailant to save lives is another thing all together.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
To each his own, I guess. We could sit here till doomsday with the "what if's" and the "I'da dones". It's a catch 22 of sorts and I'm glad it worked out in this one.
I was not commenting on this specific incident, as I do not know enough about it to say if the officers action was appropriate or not. My comments were made to discuss off duty officers jumping in the middle of crimes in progress, pro and con. There is a time to get involved, and and a time to stand down. Some of the comments made indicate an off duty officer should get involved every time he sees a potentially life threatening situation. Not always a wise decision, and I have stated why. And my statements were based on real life events I have been involved in, not bare emotions. Just because something "turns out good" does not mean it was a wise or proper thing to do. I could continue a vehicle pursuit 100MPH through a busy school zone and later say "well, I didn't run over any kids". That would not make it a proper police procedure.
I whole heartedly agree that continuing a pursuit through a school zone at ANY speed is not smart, but it endangers many innocents. So my argument is this. You stop or terminate the pursuit to save lives. The decision to act in an obvious and imminent threat when facing an armed assailant to save lives is another thing all together.
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life. A potential threat, yes. Very, very few robbers fire their guns for no reason and injure innocent people during a robbery. Robberies happen every day here, when everyone cooperates the robber takes money or property and flees. The police usually catch him later. An off duty officer confronting a robber at the scene and escalating the situation into a gun battle that otherwise would likely not occur does endanger innocent citizens. By the way, I don't know how you do it, but here officers responding to a robbery in progress do not run into the business and recklessly engage the robber in a gunfight. We control the scene and the perimeter and coordinate with each other. An off duty officer in the business can not do that. I will say it again because some people are not listening. If the robber makes some overt action that indicates he is about to use deadly force against someone, take action if you can. If he is just wielding a gun, consider other options, because the robber will most likely just flee with his loot harming no one.