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quote:Originally posted by nunn
Engaging in a gunfight? Giving the robber a chance to kill someone? Maybe not a good idea. Shooting the scoundrel in the back of the head without warning? Possibly a very good idea.
If you confront a robber off duty you will most likely start a gunfight. I have already stated all the things that can go wrong, but I guess you were not paying attention. What percentage of shots do officers hit their target with? Not so good huh. Where do the other shots go? Flying around the innocent people in the area. Do you have robberies where you work? Are the robbers shooting people for no reason? Not in my experience at hundreds of robberies. If you are on duty and responding to a robbery in progress do run into the building and start shooting, because if you wait and coordinate with other officers it might be too late and the robber will have already killed everyone (as if that is your typical robbery). Some of you are just not using your heads. Like I said, reckless abandon is a poor tactic.
I am retired. I am under no obligation to announce and challenge. And yes, I have worked the crime scene where a store customer was shot and killed for no apparent reason, after the clerk complied and gave him the contents of the register.
An armed robbery is just a murder waiting to happen.
Remember "shotgun squads?" They aren't used much anymore, but they were very effective when they were. Very few robbers were arrested, but a lot were kept from robbing again.
Did you see the video of the robbery in the internet cafe in Florida? Two armed robbers came in. One armed customer got up and started firing. I don't think the robbers got off a shot, but they surely soiled themselves scrambling out the door.
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life. A potential threat, yes. Very, very few robbers fire their guns for no reason and injure innocent people during a robbery. Robberies happen every day here, when everyone cooperates the robber takes money or property and flees. The police usually catch him later. An off duty officer confronting a robber at the scene and escalating the situation into a gun battle that otherwise would likely not occur does endanger innocent citizens. By the way, I don't know how you do it, but here officers responding to a robbery in progress do not run into the business and recklessly engage the robber in a gunfight. We control the scene and the perimeter and coordinate with each other. An off duty officer in the business can not do that. I will say it again because some people are not listening. If the robber makes some overt action that indicates he is about to use deadly force against someone, take action if you can. If he is just wielding a gun, consider other options, because the robber will most likely just flee with his loot harming no one.
[/quote]
Dude....I don't know how many years you have on the job, but that is truly, absolutely one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard come out of a "cop's" mouth!! Not an "imminent threat"????? Christ man, HE HAS A FRIGGING SHOTGUN AND IS ROBBING THE PLACE!!!! Or a pistol or a rifle or a damn blunderbuss!!! I don't care what it is, it's a freakin' gun! I conceal, obtain a clear shot to the good ol' cranial vault and PRESTO!! No gun battle, no innocents killed and by the time a SWAT team and a sniper (in your argument) shows up, the bad guy is neutralized and I'm on the phone with 911 explaining what happened, who I am and what I am wearing and I have secured my weapon so that responding officers will not mistake me for the said and now dead bad guy dirt bag!! Man....your thinking has got me bumfuzzled.....not an imminent threat? Oh wait, you would rather him kill someone first...like the waitress who's tips doesn't quite meet his expectations or the cashier who is so terrified they can't get the register open fast enough or the family of four who just happens to walk into the middle of this little party and startles said gun wielding masked robber who for whatever reason blows them all away and then YOU decide to act. Good job there, Capt. Courageous, you just let innocent people get killed while you sat back and was a good witness. Way to represent the badge and the oath. I'm done with this. You disappoint me, Cap.
Some unbelievably poor judgment being shown here by people who profess to be trained police officers. Contrary to all police training wisdom. I can understand it from you keyboard commandos who are just having fun with false bravado. But police officers should display more common sense and good judgment. Like I repeatedly said, there is a time to take action. But thinking you are Dirty Harry every time you see a felony in progress indicates more training is required. And the old guy shooting the two robbers. A good example of dumb luck and reckless abandon. Luckily the firearm armed robber had an unloaded nonfunctioning gun or it would have been a bloodbath in there with all the people in the line of fire. The old guy ran right out in the open, dead meat position, and was not able to disable the robbers. If they had functioning guns, once the old guy started the gun battle that cafe would have had bodies full of holes.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
.........By the way, I don't know how you do it, but here officers responding to a robbery in progress do not run into the business and recklessly engage the robber in a gunfight. We control the scene and the perimeter and coordinate with each other.
So, capgun. Does the "We" in the above portion of your quote mean that you are an LEO?
Those who want to hide in the corner and hope no one will be hurt or killed can do just that. And, those who choose to size up the situation and take appropriate action can do that.
The discussion is what should an officer do OFF DUTY when he sees an armed robbery in progress. If I was in a bank or other business I would discretely dial 911 and advise dispatch what was happening. I would have my weapon concealed in hand, alert and prepared to take action if an overt action by the robber indicated he was about to use deadly force. I would follow the robber as he left, providing a description and direction of travel. If he got into a vehicle I would follow him, continuing to provide his location. I would assist the responding on duty officers in whatever way possible to apprehend the robber. If at any time I felt, using my training and experience, that the robber was about to use deadly force I would take whatever action I could to stop him. If the robber was merely wielding his weapon to to force compliance while committing his crime, and the robber was not using any force while everyone was cooperating, I would not initiate a gun battle inside the business endangering innocent people. That is what is taught in the police academy, and what I have been taught in inservice training. When off duty, with on duty officers responding, do not escalate a dangerous situation.
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
From my police legal source - "Imminent threat-Imminent peril, danger that is certain, immediate, about to happen." Imminent as such does not mean something that just could happen. And that is the definition I was using. Certain, immediate, about to happen. As I said repeatedly, at that point I would take action.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
From my police legal source - "Imminent threat-Imminent peril, danger that is certain, immediate, about to happen." Imminent as such does not mean something that just could happen. And that is the definition I was using. Certain, immediate, about to happen. As I said repeatedly, at that point I would take action.
Well IMO a man entering a business armed with a deadly weapon, choosing that deadly weapon with some intent in mind. In other words he didn't forget that he has it in his hands. (I suppose it could happen, you're out duck hunting and decide you want chinese and forget you have your bird gun) and displaying said weapon in a manner to lead one to the conclusion that he intends to use it. Well that would leave me with the impression that he is an imminent threat. Considering it takes fractions of a second to aim and squeeze off a round thus extinguishing a life, I may not have time to evaluate his motive. But you go ahead and cower in the corner, because some one else, who is hopefully armed will most likely resolve the matter for you.
I just hope for your wife's(assuming you are married) sake that if you are out somewhere and this happens, that she too is armed because it sounds like she is gonna be SOL if she is relying on her hubby.
Why would you chance error on whether the shotgun was chambered?You gonna wait and see if he loads it?...that wouldn't happen with my city or county employees..
"I just hope for your wife's(assuming you are married) sake that if you are out somewhere and this happens, that she too is armed because it sounds like she is gonna be SOL if she is relying on her hubby." My wife is too smart to start a gun battle in a business with an armed robber who has used no physical force against anyone. She knows, like I do, that in all but the very rarest cases robbers grab the money and flee, harming no one. She does not live the fantasy world where robbers routinely start killing innocent people for no reason. But she, like I, would have her weapon ready in case she perceives the robber for some reason was about to actually use deadly force.
Gentlemen,
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same deserts.
Gentlemen,
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same desserts.
SS
This is a forum, designed for conversation. If you disagree with my opinion on a topic, state your opinion, and lets discuss it.
Gentlemen,
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same desserts.
SS
I dislike Jane Fondas politics and movies. But if she likes chocolate eclairs and berry pie then I would gladly have the same desserts as her.
Comments
Engaging in a gunfight? Giving the robber a chance to kill someone? Maybe not a good idea. Shooting the scoundrel in the back of the head without warning? Possibly a very good idea.
If you confront a robber off duty you will most likely start a gunfight. I have already stated all the things that can go wrong, but I guess you were not paying attention. What percentage of shots do officers hit their target with? Not so good huh. Where do the other shots go? Flying around the innocent people in the area. Do you have robberies where you work? Are the robbers shooting people for no reason? Not in my experience at hundreds of robberies. If you are on duty and responding to a robbery in progress do run into the building and start shooting, because if you wait and coordinate with other officers it might be too late and the robber will have already killed everyone (as if that is your typical robbery). Some of you are just not using your heads. Like I said, reckless abandon is a poor tactic.
An armed robbery is just a murder waiting to happen.
Remember "shotgun squads?" They aren't used much anymore, but they were very effective when they were. Very few robbers were arrested, but a lot were kept from robbing again.
Did you see the video of the robbery in the internet cafe in Florida? Two armed robbers came in. One armed customer got up and started firing. I don't think the robbers got off a shot, but they surely soiled themselves scrambling out the door.
It sure didn't appear to me that he announced and challenged. He just got up and started shooting.
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life. A potential threat, yes. Very, very few robbers fire their guns for no reason and injure innocent people during a robbery. Robberies happen every day here, when everyone cooperates the robber takes money or property and flees. The police usually catch him later. An off duty officer confronting a robber at the scene and escalating the situation into a gun battle that otherwise would likely not occur does endanger innocent citizens. By the way, I don't know how you do it, but here officers responding to a robbery in progress do not run into the business and recklessly engage the robber in a gunfight. We control the scene and the perimeter and coordinate with each other. An off duty officer in the business can not do that. I will say it again because some people are not listening. If the robber makes some overt action that indicates he is about to use deadly force against someone, take action if you can. If he is just wielding a gun, consider other options, because the robber will most likely just flee with his loot harming no one.
[/quote]
Dude....I don't know how many years you have on the job, but that is truly, absolutely one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard come out of a "cop's" mouth!! Not an "imminent threat"????? Christ man, HE HAS A FRIGGING SHOTGUN AND IS ROBBING THE PLACE!!!! Or a pistol or a rifle or a damn blunderbuss!!! I don't care what it is, it's a freakin' gun! I conceal, obtain a clear shot to the good ol' cranial vault and PRESTO!! No gun battle, no innocents killed and by the time a SWAT team and a sniper (in your argument) shows up, the bad guy is neutralized and I'm on the phone with 911 explaining what happened, who I am and what I am wearing and I have secured my weapon so that responding officers will not mistake me for the said and now dead bad guy dirt bag!! Man....your thinking has got me bumfuzzled.....not an imminent threat? Oh wait, you would rather him kill someone first...like the waitress who's tips doesn't quite meet his expectations or the cashier who is so terrified they can't get the register open fast enough or the family of four who just happens to walk into the middle of this little party and startles said gun wielding masked robber who for whatever reason blows them all away and then YOU decide to act. Good job there, Capt. Courageous, you just let innocent people get killed while you sat back and was a good witness. Way to represent the badge and the oath. I'm done with this. You disappoint me, Cap.
.........By the way, I don't know how you do it, but here officers responding to a robbery in progress do not run into the business and recklessly engage the robber in a gunfight. We control the scene and the perimeter and coordinate with each other.
So, capgun. Does the "We" in the above portion of your quote mean that you are an LEO?
SS
Because it worked out, I feel he made the right choice within his own perceived limits.
I think it was a perfect outcome so I think he did his job well.
If it hadn't worked out, I would think he had misjudged his abilities.
I think we should all be grateful that it went well and there is one less bad guy out there to threaten the rest of us.
I hope he deals well with the stress of having to do what he did.
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
Those who want to hide in the corner and hope no one will be hurt or killed can do just that. And, those who choose to size up the situation and take appropriate action can do that.
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
No, its not a life and death situation until you see him rack the shotgun, or put it to someones head first.[:o)]
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
From my police legal source - "Imminent threat-Imminent peril, danger that is certain, immediate, about to happen." Imminent as such does not mean something that just could happen. And that is the definition I was using. Certain, immediate, about to happen. As I said repeatedly, at that point I would take action.
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by wartiger
quote:Originally posted by capgun
Like I said, a robber only wielding a gun is not an imminent threat to human life.
That explains the mentality you are dealing with here. The bad guy needs to shoot someone first before we really, really, really know his intentions.
From my police legal source - "Imminent threat-Imminent peril, danger that is certain, immediate, about to happen." Imminent as such does not mean something that just could happen. And that is the definition I was using. Certain, immediate, about to happen. As I said repeatedly, at that point I would take action.
Well IMO a man entering a business armed with a deadly weapon, choosing that deadly weapon with some intent in mind. In other words he didn't forget that he has it in his hands. (I suppose it could happen, you're out duck hunting and decide you want chinese and forget you have your bird gun) and displaying said weapon in a manner to lead one to the conclusion that he intends to use it. Well that would leave me with the impression that he is an imminent threat. Considering it takes fractions of a second to aim and squeeze off a round thus extinguishing a life, I may not have time to evaluate his motive. But you go ahead and cower in the corner, because some one else, who is hopefully armed will most likely resolve the matter for you.
I just hope for your wife's(assuming you are married) sake that if you are out somewhere and this happens, that she too is armed because it sounds like she is gonna be SOL if she is relying on her hubby.
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same deserts.
SS
Gentlemen,
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same desserts.
SS
This is a forum, designed for conversation. If you disagree with my opinion on a topic, state your opinion, and lets discuss it.
Gentlemen,
it is my humble opinion that capgun is a troll.
On two occasions I have posted questions to him and he has posted (in response to other questions) long winded reasons why his thinking is sound but hasn't replied with a response to my queries.
Since I believe he is a troll, I think I will learn how to "block" a poster on this forum and do so. He and Jane Fonda are about equal in my opinion and deserve the same desserts.
SS
I dislike Jane Fondas politics and movies. But if she likes chocolate eclairs and berry pie then I would gladly have the same desserts as her.